like me telling someone the best way to dunk a basketball....when in fact I'm 5'5 and have never done it.

we have all these ranches that manage deer and don't shoot spikes, the Las Raices, High Lonesome, etc and kill deer over 200" with native genetics



Dr. Kroll, who manages hundreds of thousands of acres, who dosen't advocate shooting spikes.

yet you, sitting there typing on your computer, having never owned or managed a ranch for whitetail, are sitting there touting the Kerr study like it is the gospel of managing whitetail

So by using nutrition to improve your herd, are you talking about feeding protien?

As with anything else, just read all the research that's available and use your own reasoning and common sense to make your own decision. And as with all science, remain open to what the newest and best evidence does or doesn't suggest.

yes.

a deer needs a min. of 16% protein to maximize antler development. feeding supplemental protien accomplishes two things:

first, it gives them minerals and proteins that they may not be getting from native browse. secondly, it takes pressure off native browse and lets it regenerate in times of drought or heavy pressure

Management in its simplest, easiest, and affordable practice...

1) establish a population number
2) establish what your current property can support(naturally and with supplemental feed)
3) harvest animals to keep below or at CC.


Notes for your own criteria for harvest----older the doe more then likey she will have twins, a bucks best set of antler normally hit @ 6.5. When you shoot a young buck its dead, if you shoot lots of young bucks...you elimated an age class....meaning you will have a gap in deer...like lots of 3.5 year old and no 4.5 year olds

Great Topic. I feel like I am constantly learning.

Thanks for all the feedback. Keep it coming

This answer will be hard to improve upon no matter how long this thread lasts...

well stated BOBO. I'd add that take out your 8pt and less bucks if you are trying to produce 10pt plus bucks. We take out our 8's at 3.5 unless the have a heck of a frame on them as we have lots of clients that want 140 plus 8's whiuch we take eery year. If at 2.5 its less than 8 points shoot it!

I never thought about that.

Homer Jay I don't manage operations the size of some of these fellows but I have managed some smaller low fence operation. Have we been able to increase the size (both body and antlers) of our deer. Yes. We have managed to improve our hunting tremendously on every place we have been on. We have done this by not shooting young bucks, feeding protein from January till September, and by keeping our doe numbers in check. Even when we are just feeding corn chances are we are feeding more of it than any of the neighbors. We seem to have good neighbors and that helps, but the facts remain that if you let a young buck walk he may get shot or he may survive...if you shot him than he doesn't stand a chance.

Good luck.

-john

All my bucks are shot via age....difference in the 120 6.5year old or 180 6.5 year old is who shoots them wife, kids, mistress..or me

No wrong or right to either a approach, you just don't feel like feeding them another three years ill take the chance. The foundation of both plans are the same

Bobo, stx, and a very few others are the only ones I listen to when management comes up, because most on here are really only weekend warriors but THINK they know EVERYTHING about management.


rifleman and txshntr are good as well. Nogalus prairie brings good arguments to the table too. BMD likes to stir the pot, but has good points.

Genetics is the last thing anyone on a low fence place should worry about. Especially if in a lease situation. Once you have done everything to improve your habitat to its ability including proper supplemental feeding, once you have done everything to establish a proper age structure, once you have done everything to get below carrying capacity, once you have done everything to get your buck to doe ratio correct, then we can talk about culling for genetics. 99% arent ever going to get there. Actually maybe it is 99.9%.

+1 maybe the best post yet.

My approach is to shoot lots of does and only mature bucks. A mature buck, regardless of B&C score, is a trophy.

Any idiot can usually go out and shoot a buck. It takes persistence and patience to bag a mature buck.

If there are good genetics in your area I would manage for age. This will give the deer time to reach their potential. Nutrition helps if genetics are good but you will see if a deer is reaching his potential after he's aged some. If there is no improvement from 4 to 5 years and nutrition is right, its time to take him out of the pool. If there is a deer that improves every year give him another year to spread the genetics. As for neighbors all you can do is pass the word. They will do what they want. I'm glad we have antler restrictions in our coutny now. We have good genetics deer just never lived long enough for hunters to notice.

Where is STX when you need him

I disagree with some of the statements that you "can't manage the genetics in a herd." It is possible to manage the genetics, but not change them. For the most part, by culling certain deer, you are deciding which deer to feed and which deer you will not feed. Also, you are deciding which deer will actually make it to maturity and you which deer will reach their full potential. The goal is to let the young deer, that show the greatest potential, reach maturity.

There are exceptions in every herd, but you don't want to be managing a herd based on exceptions. For instance, a 3 yo six pointer might turn into a 6 yo ten pointer, but I wouldn't want to take that chance and feed them for 3 extra years to see if they are the exception.

Focus at first should be on herd control. Determining the proper CC is difficult. Very few places, especially places that are not currently under a management program, are at or below CC. Proper ratio of buck to doe is important. Most likely, the place will have more does than bucks, so killing doe is a must. When you get into the management of the herd and deciding which bucks to take, you need to look at each age class and not take all your "culls" out of one age class. Some people let all their deer get to 3.5 and then decide which ones to remove from the herd. Problem is that as deer get older, they get harder to kill. This is the reason that some folks start culling from 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5.

There are folks that disagree with me on protein and supplemental feeding. My stance is that if you try to throw protein at the herd without other management practices, you are pissing in the wind. Protein without management is a waste. Management without protein will make a difference in the herd and quality of mature deer. Therefore, I focus more on the management side before considering supplemental feeding and management is a much cheaper option for the average hunter. Combination of the two will provide the greatest potential of your herd.

Another good point was made earlier...don't judge your herd by feeders. If I did that on one of my places, I would think I had 20 bucks to every doe. On another place, I would think I had 20 doe to every buck. You can get an idea of your herd and the quality of the deer in your herd by the feeders and cameras, but do not rely soley on them.

There is no way to tell you what you need to do on your property over the internet, but you just need to take the information that is presented and do what seems logical for your needs and expectations.

Why do you not feed protein year round?

January-september is when the deer need the most protein for development and recovery from the rut.

Yep. Also I want them hitting the feeders during the season.

-john

I've seen this a lot too.

That's typically how we feed.....unless its just extremely dry, then we will feed year round.

We've done both and we really couldn't tell a difference in pre rut body weight or antler growth.

The cc of your land will also factor into this equation

Going to have to disagree with you here tx...though your statement has logic and there are alot of folks that "think" they know something, you can still learn by listening. Sometimes, someone that doesn't actually know something can provide a perspective that you haven't thought about.

Also, you have to be careful taking advice from someone that has managed the same ranch for 20 years. What they are doing on that place might work, but will not work everywhere. Also, many people that have been doing it a long time get complacent and believe they have it all figured out. Since they have done it and seen results, they decide that is the way it should be done.

my

I think his point was that there a lot of folks that have never done it and like to throw out their opinions. I'll take the guy that has done it for 20 years over zero experience every time. TO your point, if you arent constantly looking to improve you will fall in a rut. I also believe there is certainly more than one way to get to were you want to go. It all starts with collecting data 100% of the time and then analysing it. If it is trending in the direction you want to go then keep doing what you are doing. If it platues or is going backwards then time to change things up. To the original post, I will say again, genetics is the last thing anyone needs to worry about. Unfortunately it is the first and easiest thing most cite when they shoot a young/small buck. If your buck to doe ratio is out of whack, you shouldnt be shooting any bucks if you want to talk management. Each and every buck is important in this scenario.