"Managing Genetics"

Something I saw on another forum made me ask myself this question: On a low fence property is it even possible to "manage the genetics" of your deer heard? You have no control over what the guys on neighboring properties are doing and deer are fairly transient animals, from what I've been told. Eager to hear from some more experieinced hunters. Thanks in advance.

Best management for smaller low fence properties is supplement feeding, controlling your cc numbers, and buck doe ratio. I think mostly the genetics you have is what you get, but through management of other things certain genetics will shine and surprise you.

Good post. What is a favorable buck to doe ratio?

good advice

a favorable buck to doe rato is 1:1 or 1:2. Nature set it up to be a 1:2 ratio or there around. Deer arn't like elk as in they have harems, they breed a doe then move on to the next one.

Be advised though, that you can't go whacking every doe because you have alot of does under one feeder and one or two bucks. Last year, I had 8 bucks at a feeder and no does. Uncle had 9 does at a feeder and 1 buck. if he were to base his ratio off of that particular spot he would have been way off.

Depending on the size of your place, I would strive for nutrition and habitat first and then start shooting your older mature does, as well as bucks that are 5 1/2 years or older

I don't get it.

he's just saying that your gonna get a million different opinions on this subject.

only listen to those guys that own or manage ranches. You'll get alot of weekend warriors chiming in with their 2 cents because they read an article in QMA and they think the're experts

Hard to do much in the way of genetics because you have no clue of the does genetic makeup in terms of antler production. Was she sired by a dink 8 point that scored 110 or a really nice 10 that scored 160...you just have no way of knowing. The best you can do in a low fence setup is to improve nutrition and age. The age is the hard part unless you are on a big place or have good neighbors. We are lucky on out lease. While it is only 800 acres we tend to have good neighbors and ofter see our bucks for several years running before someone kills them.

-john

IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.

IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined.

But the spike study done by the TPWD has been proven to be flawed. Their study ended when the bucks turned 3 1/2 years of age. They did this because back then very few bucks even reached that age. Now with more people allowing their bucks to grow it has pushed the age of harvest back. Every study that has been done since and allows the bucks to reach at least 4 1/2 years of age have reach the same conclusion. That being spikes will be just as large as fork horns from 4 1/2 on.

Also I hunt in the hill country and the rut can really be spread out. From the first rut to the last can often be 4 or more months. Those bucks born late will almost always be spikes in their first year and it has absolutely nothing to do with genetics. It is all about age.

Also how many does do you think a buck breeds a year? It is normally less than 3. So removing one particular individual from an establish genetic pool will not have any significant influence on future generations.

-john

Dan,

let me ask you a question? Do you own or professionally manage a property for whitetail deer?

Hearing this a lot.

From reading his earlier response you can probably guess the answer to this and be right 99.99% of the time....

Sorry I just could not resist....

-john

Lol this is junk.... Flawed and has been proved to be un repeatable....period.

Please actually read the study before you push it as biblical.

Qdm is based soley off herd health based on cc. Kerr is based of line breeding daddy's with thier daughters, grand daughters, great grand daughter etc...to come out with a statement that hill country spike yearlings will be a small percent smaller via % BC score , then a very distant forked horn cousins from down south

Common sense would tell you if culling genetics works....there would be zero 8pt management hunts for sale on every highly managed ranch in Texas.

Fact is 99.9% of lessors or land owners do not have the resources, tag numbers or gut, for the exstensive harvest it would take for decades to begin to cull traits out of a deer herd where antler traits are only observed in the males, and don't reach full potential until 5.6-6.5 years of add in the very best habitat conditions.

If it was so simple as shooting spikes you would not see the extermenation of a local herd to be replaced with a documentented herd

the kerr studies are the only ones ever finding spikes to be undesireable.

The question that every hunter who reads these posts MUST keep in mind, is who should dictate our laws that control wild deer harvesting. Should it be the TPWD with feedback from the majority of Texas hunters, or members of the QDMA?

Buck to doe ratio is important... I'd say it all depends on how big of a property you are talking about. If it's 100 acres, then you probably can't impact it much. On the other hand, if it is 1000 you will see more of the native population and have a better idea of what needs to be done.

No I am pretty sure the question was

"Something I saw on another forum made me ask myself this question: On a low fence property is it even possible to "manage the genetics" of your deer heard? You have no control over what the guys on neighboring properties are doing and deer are fairly transient animals, from what I've been told. Eager to hear from some more experieinced hunters. Thanks in advance."

-john

I hunt on 320 acres just west of the Brazos River in Throckmorton Co. It is a very remote area. One hunting camp directly north of our property and one about 6 miles south.

"MUST keep in mind"

TPWD "might" get feedback from 18% of Texas hunters, it certainly isn't a majority.

My answer to your as usual silly arsed question (which has nothing to do with the question the OP asked), is neither.
Each property that wants to "manage" should be assessed in person by a qualified manager or biologist before doing anything besides simple habitat improvement.

Can someone please post me one study that shows "culling" bucks on a low fenced property actually works? I can tell you that after managing our 670 hf hill county ranch since 1995, we have seen little change in the antlers grown. Every area will usually have a peak size. I know around Ranger, a good 5.5 to 6.5 year old buck will be in the 140s. Sure some might get a little bigger, but overall, they peak around that 140s mark.

The most one can do is get the carrying capacity near normal, try and get a close buck to die ratio, provide as much feed as you can and lastly pray for rain early in the Spring and Summer. Oh, almost forgot, let the bucks age and shoot the old does

No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Honestly, my golf game is horrible. But that doesn't mean I haven't been successful in learning from others, exactly what it takes to execute a perfect swing.

TPWD doesn't manage or set property limits only individual limits.

Our herd has been and will be controlled and managed via hunters and land owners.

I have no idea what your issue is with qdma or a qdm type management plan is? I guess it from a total lack of understanding of what it is kind of like the Kerr study... I hardly see TPWD being able to push a qdm or tdm type plan on anyone, especially when they all ready give you a choice to step out of the blanket tag system and season dates.

I didn't know I would be rocking the boat with my post. Sure wasn't my intention. I don't know a thing about QDMA. I just couldn't figure out how to manage a herd on a low fence property like mine.

like me telling someone the best way to dunk a basketball....when in fact I'm 5'5 and have never done it.

we have all these ranches that manage deer and don't shoot spikes, the Las Raices, High Lonesome, etc and kill deer over 200" with native genetics



Dr. Kroll, who manages hundreds of thousands of acres, who dosen't advocate shooting spikes.

yet you, sitting there typing on your computer, having never owned or managed a ranch for whitetail, are sitting there touting the Kerr study like it is the gospel of managing whitetail

So by using nutrition to improve your herd, are you talking about feeding protien?

As with anything else, just read all the research that's available and use your own reasoning and common sense to make your own decision. And as with all science, remain open to what the newest and best evidence does or doesn't suggest.

yes.

a deer needs a min. of 16% protein to maximize antler development. feeding supplemental protien accomplishes two things:

first, it gives them minerals and proteins that they may not be getting from native browse. secondly, it takes pressure off native browse and lets it regenerate in times of drought or heavy pressure

Management in its simplest, easiest, and affordable practice...

1) establish a population number
2) establish what your current property can support(naturally and with supplemental feed)
3) harvest animals to keep below or at CC.


Notes for your own criteria for harvest----older the doe more then likey she will have twins, a bucks best set of antler normally hit @ 6.5. When you shoot a young buck its dead, if you shoot lots of young bucks...you elimated an age class....meaning you will have a gap in deer...like lots of 3.5 year old and no 4.5 year olds

Great Topic. I feel like I am constantly learning.

Thanks for all the feedback. Keep it coming

This answer will be hard to improve upon no matter how long this thread lasts...

well stated BOBO. I'd add that take out your 8pt and less bucks if you are trying to produce 10pt plus bucks. We take out our 8's at 3.5 unless the have a heck of a frame on them as we have lots of clients that want 140 plus 8's whiuch we take eery year. If at 2.5 its less than 8 points shoot it!

I never thought about that.

Homer Jay I don't manage operations the size of some of these fellows but I have managed some smaller low fence operation. Have we been able to increase the size (both body and antlers) of our deer. Yes. We have managed to improve our hunting tremendously on every place we have been on. We have done this by not shooting young bucks, feeding protein from January till September, and by keeping our doe numbers in check. Even when we are just feeding corn chances are we are feeding more of it than any of the neighbors. We seem to have good neighbors and that helps, but the facts remain that if you let a young buck walk he may get shot or he may survive...if you shot him than he doesn't stand a chance.

Good luck.

-john

All my bucks are shot via age....difference in the 120 6.5year old or 180 6.5 year old is who shoots them wife, kids, mistress..or me

No wrong or right to either a approach, you just don't feel like feeding them another three years ill take the chance. The foundation of both plans are the same

Bobo, stx, and a very few others are the only ones I listen to when management comes up, because most on here are really only weekend warriors but THINK they know EVERYTHING about management.


rifleman and txshntr are good as well. Nogalus prairie brings good arguments to the table too. BMD likes to stir the pot, but has good points.

Genetics is the last thing anyone on a low fence place should worry about. Especially if in a lease situation. Once you have done everything to improve your habitat to its ability including proper supplemental feeding, once you have done everything to establish a proper age structure, once you have done everything to get below carrying capacity, once you have done everything to get your buck to doe ratio correct, then we can talk about culling for genetics. 99% arent ever going to get there. Actually maybe it is 99.9%.

+1 maybe the best post yet.

My approach is to shoot lots of does and only mature bucks. A mature buck, regardless of B&C score, is a trophy.

Any idiot can usually go out and shoot a buck. It takes persistence and patience to bag a mature buck.

If there are good genetics in your area I would manage for age. This will give the deer time to reach their potential. Nutrition helps if genetics are good but you will see if a deer is reaching his potential after he's aged some. If there is no improvement from 4 to 5 years and nutrition is right, its time to take him out of the pool. If there is a deer that improves every year give him another year to spread the genetics. As for neighbors all you can do is pass the word. They will do what they want. I'm glad we have antler restrictions in our coutny now. We have good genetics deer just never lived long enough for hunters to notice.

Where is STX when you need him

I disagree with some of the statements that you "can't manage the genetics in a herd." It is possible to manage the genetics, but not change them. For the most part, by culling certain deer, you are deciding which deer to feed and which deer you will not feed. Also, you are deciding which deer will actually make it to maturity and you which deer will reach their full potential. The goal is to let the young deer, that show the greatest potential, reach maturity.

There are exceptions in every herd, but you don't want to be managing a herd based on exceptions. For instance, a 3 yo six pointer might turn into a 6 yo ten pointer, but I wouldn't want to take that chance and feed them for 3 extra years to see if they are the exception.

Focus at first should be on herd control. Determining the proper CC is difficult. Very few places, especially places that are not currently under a management program, are at or below CC. Proper ratio of buck to doe is important. Most likely, the place will have more does than bucks, so killing doe is a must. When you get into the management of the herd and deciding which bucks to take, you need to look at each age class and not take all your "culls" out of one age class. Some people let all their deer get to 3.5 and then decide which ones to remove from the herd. Problem is that as deer get older, they get harder to kill. This is the reason that some folks start culling from 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5.

There are folks that disagree with me on protein and supplemental feeding. My stance is that if you try to throw protein at the herd without other management practices, you are pissing in the wind. Protein without management is a waste. Management without protein will make a difference in the herd and quality of mature deer. Therefore, I focus more on the management side before considering supplemental feeding and management is a much cheaper option for the average hunter. Combination of the two will provide the greatest potential of your herd.

Another good point was made earlier...don't judge your herd by feeders. If I did that on one of my places, I would think I had 20 bucks to every doe. On another place, I would think I had 20 doe to every buck. You can get an idea of your herd and the quality of the deer in your herd by the feeders and cameras, but do not rely soley on them.

There is no way to tell you what you need to do on your property over the internet, but you just need to take the information that is presented and do what seems logical for your needs and expectations.

Why do you not feed protein year round?

January-september is when the deer need the most protein for development and recovery from the rut.

Yep. Also I want them hitting the feeders during the season.

-john

I've seen this a lot too.

That's typically how we feed.....unless its just extremely dry, then we will feed year round.

We've done both and we really couldn't tell a difference in pre rut body weight or antler growth.

The cc of your land will also factor into this equation

Going to have to disagree with you here tx...though your statement has logic and there are alot of folks that "think" they know something, you can still learn by listening. Sometimes, someone that doesn't actually know something can provide a perspective that you haven't thought about.

Also, you have to be careful taking advice from someone that has managed the same ranch for 20 years. What they are doing on that place might work, but will not work everywhere. Also, many people that have been doing it a long time get complacent and believe they have it all figured out. Since they have done it and seen results, they decide that is the way it should be done.

my

I think his point was that there a lot of folks that have never done it and like to throw out their opinions. I'll take the guy that has done it for 20 years over zero experience every time. TO your point, if you arent constantly looking to improve you will fall in a rut. I also believe there is certainly more than one way to get to were you want to go. It all starts with collecting data 100% of the time and then analysing it. If it is trending in the direction you want to go then keep doing what you are doing. If it platues or is going backwards then time to change things up. To the original post, I will say again, genetics is the last thing anyone needs to worry about. Unfortunately it is the first and easiest thing most cite when they shoot a young/small buck. If your buck to doe ratio is out of whack, you shouldnt be shooting any bucks if you want to talk management. Each and every buck is important in this scenario.

Are there any "universal principles" that everyone can agree on about this kind of management? Like nutrition?

Dr. Krolls is a yack tard......clearly pushes a self benifiting adgenda. Every time I've read an article he's written or listened to a lecture he's given, he constantly contradicts himself....A$$ hat

Altering a wild herds genetics through hunting dang near imposible as BoBo said. Just supply in abbundance what every deer needs...water, food, shelter/space and finally time ie let them mature...which ones you can do consistantly is up to you

There is good info in the Kerr study and Kroll will somtimes say something that doesnt make him sound like a idiot....none of these quys/studies are the golden plan or magic bean. It's a constant evolutional process that requires the same from the hunter.

Thank heavens that the Indians intensively managed shooting spikes for the 40,000 years they were here before us, or we wouldn't have any big deer at all. If at any point during the last 50 years we didn't shoot spikes our deer herds would all be made up of 6 year old 5 pointers.

Was wondering where you were hiding

Indians hunted for meat, not antlers

I love the debates, but this one should be over...

Surely it wasn't all covered just yet...as far as the spike debate, I would agree. Unless STX shows back up

We're talking 300 LF acres here, CC kind of goes out the window bc the name of the game is to attract everything around to have the biggest selection of buck in age classes possible. Chances are they won't live there full time so cater to them as much as possible, turn the place into a refuge for them and don't worry so much about pulling the trigger. And for any buck that is undesirable, you have to ask yourself: How did they end up getting there in the first place? Also need to consider that you even get crap offspring inside of a breeder pen with good pedigree.

Why is this turning into a spike debate?

Only spikes I worry about are tire spikes

Indians kept the buck/ doe ratio in balance that was the secret to their success.

Usually comes up anytime someone discusses culling a young deer and Kroll

I wonder about krolls study sometimes. Really haven't got in to it all that much. I just think its a bit of a stretch to study deer on a ranch like lee Wheeler's place and translate those findings into deer for the rest of the state.

Some studies came from Boggy...those are deer from everywhere.

I find them to be undesireable also.

Its mostly about Birthdays and patience!

Bingo

Well said.

As far as spikes are concerned the TPWD study has been shoot down by studies all across this country. It was not just the Kroll study.

-john

It does take age, but age alone will not produce big bucks everywhere. We have a 3500 acre pasture that has had around 9 deer killed out of it in the last 10 years. I can assure you that there are mature deer there, but the surveys and trail cam picks from that pasture show that the mature deer in that pasture are, on average, smaller or around the same as the ones on our managed 6500 acres.

Its hard for folks that lease land to wait. Not sure they will have the place next year, the 75 acres next to them with 4 blinds and feeders, etc. Having the patience to let that deer have birthdays also give the other folks around you with no patience more chances to kill him. Its a chicken or the egg thing i will pass on a borderline deer later in the season (after most folks have quit hunting) than I will earlier in the season. Letting deer have BD is best for big deer but is not always best for the situation that a deer hunter will have when he has made a substantial investment in his season. IMO there is no black and white rule.