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Feb 12th, 2024
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 "Managing Genetics"
#3603027
09/25/12 04:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152 |
Something I saw on another forum made me ask myself this question: On a low fence property is it even possible to "manage the genetics" of your deer heard? You have no control over what the guys on neighboring properties are doing and deer are fairly transient animals, from what I've been told. Eager to hear from some more experieinced hunters. Thanks in advance.
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Homer Jay]
#3603068
09/25/12 04:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,294
8pointdrop
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Dec 2011
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Best management for smaller low fence properties is supplement feeding, controlling your cc numbers, and buck doe ratio. I think mostly the genetics you have is what you get, but through management of other things certain genetics will shine and surprise you.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: 8pointdrop]
#3603076
09/25/12 05:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152 |
Good post. What is a favorable buck to doe ratio?
Last edited by Homer Jay; 09/25/12 05:03 PM.
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Homer Jay]
#3603092
09/25/12 05:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,074
Justin T
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: 8pointdrop]
#3603093
09/25/12 05:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,061
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 32,061 |
Best management for smaller low fence properties is supplement feeding, controlling your cc numbers, and buck doe ratio. I think mostly the genetics you have is what you get, but through management of other things certain genetics will shine and surprise you. good advice a favorable buck to doe rato is 1:1 or 1:2. Nature set it up to be a 1:2 ratio or there around. Deer arn't like elk as in they have harems, they breed a doe then move on to the next one. Be advised though, that you can't go whacking every doe because you have alot of does under one feeder and one or two bucks. Last year, I had 8 bucks at a feeder and no does. Uncle had 9 does at a feeder and 1 buck. if he were to base his ratio off of that particular spot he would have been way off. Depending on the size of your place, I would strive for nutrition and habitat first and then start shooting your older mature does, as well as bucks that are 5 1/2 years or older
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Justin T]
#3603103
09/25/12 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
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THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152 |
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Homer Jay]
#3603123
09/25/12 05:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,061
txtrophy85
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he's just saying that your gonna get a million different opinions on this subject. only listen to those guys that own or manage ranches. You'll get alot of weekend warriors chiming in with their 2 cents because they read an article in QMA and they think the're experts
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3603152
09/25/12 05:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883
TX_Hoghunter
Tracker
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Tracker
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Posts: 883 |
Hard to do much in the way of genetics because you have no clue of the does genetic makeup in terms of antler production. Was she sired by a dink 8 point that scored 110 or a really nice 10 that scored 160...you just have no way of knowing. The best you can do in a low fence setup is to improve nutrition and age. The age is the hard part unless you are on a big place or have good neighbors. We are lucky on out lease. While it is only 800 acres we tend to have good neighbors and ofter see our bucks for several years running before someone kills them.
-john
Time to catch a hog..........
A friend of Ken's
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: TX_Hoghunter]
#3603206
09/25/12 05:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,280
Texas Dan
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IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.
IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603317
09/25/12 06:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883
TX_Hoghunter
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883 |
But the spike study done by the TPWD has been proven to be flawed. Their study ended when the bucks turned 3 1/2 years of age. They did this because back then very few bucks even reached that age. Now with more people allowing their bucks to grow it has pushed the age of harvest back. Every study that has been done since and allows the bucks to reach at least 4 1/2 years of age have reach the same conclusion. That being spikes will be just as large as fork horns from 4 1/2 on.
Also I hunt in the hill country and the rut can really be spread out. From the first rut to the last can often be 4 or more months. Those bucks born late will almost always be spikes in their first year and it has absolutely nothing to do with genetics. It is all about age.
Also how many does do you think a buck breeds a year? It is normally less than 3. So removing one particular individual from an establish genetic pool will not have any significant influence on future generations.
-john
Time to catch a hog..........
A friend of Ken's
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603326
09/25/12 06:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,061
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,061 |
IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.
IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined. Dan, let me ask you a question? Do you own or professionally manage a property for whitetail deer?
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: TX_Hoghunter]
#3603331
09/25/12 06:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152 |
The best you can do in a low fence setup is to improve nutrition and age. -john Hearing this a lot.
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3603339
09/25/12 06:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883
TX_Hoghunter
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883 |
From reading his earlier response you can probably guess the answer to this and be right 99.99% of the time....
Sorry I just could not resist....
-john
Time to catch a hog..........
A friend of Ken's
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603353
09/25/12 06:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,625
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,625 |
IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.
IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined. Lol this is junk.... Flawed and has been proved to be un repeatable....period. Please actually read the study before you push it as biblical. Qdm is based soley off herd health based on cc. Kerr is based of line breeding daddy's with thier daughters, grand daughters, great grand daughter etc...to come out with a statement that hill country spike yearlings will be a small percent smaller via % BC score , then a very distant forked horn cousins from down south Common sense would tell you if culling genetics works....there would be zero 8pt management hunts for sale on every highly managed ranch in Texas.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3603370
09/25/12 06:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,625
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,625 |
Fact is 99.9% of lessors or land owners do not have the resources, tag numbers or gut, for the exstensive harvest it would take for decades to begin to cull traits out of a deer herd where antler traits are only observed in the males, and don't reach full potential until 5.6-6.5 years of add in the very best habitat conditions.
If it was so simple as shooting spikes you would not see the extermenation of a local herd to be replaced with a documentented herd
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3603376
09/25/12 06:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,061
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,061 |
IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.
IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined. Lol this is junk.... Flawed and has been proved to be un repeatable....period. Please actually read the study before you push it as biblical. Qdm is based soley off herd health based on cc. Kerr is based of line breeding daddy's with thier daughters, grand daughters, great grand daughter etc...to come out with a statement that hill country spike yearlings will be a small percent smaller via % BC score , then a very distant forked horn cousins from down south Common sense would tell you if culling genetics works....there would be zero 8pt management hunts for sale on every highly managed ranch in Texas. the kerr studies are the only ones ever finding spikes to be undesireable.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3603419
09/25/12 06:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,280
Texas Dan
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,280 |
The question that every hunter who reads these posts MUST keep in mind, is who should dictate our laws that control wild deer harvesting. Should it be the TPWD with feedback from the majority of Texas hunters, or members of the QDMA?
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603436
09/25/12 06:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 183
07FJ
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 183 |
Buck to doe ratio is important... I'd say it all depends on how big of a property you are talking about. If it's 100 acres, then you probably can't impact it much. On the other hand, if it is 1000 you will see more of the native population and have a better idea of what needs to be done.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603444
09/25/12 06:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883
TX_Hoghunter
Tracker
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Tracker
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Posts: 883 |
The question that every hunter who reads these posts MUST keep in mind, is who should dictate our laws that control wild deer harvesting. Should it be the TPWD with feedback from the majority of Texas hunters, or members of the QDMA? No I am pretty sure the question was "Something I saw on another forum made me ask myself this question: On a low fence property is it even possible to "manage the genetics" of your deer heard? You have no control over what the guys on neighboring properties are doing and deer are fairly transient animals, from what I've been told. Eager to hear from some more experieinced hunters. Thanks in advance." -john
Time to catch a hog..........
A friend of Ken's
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: 07FJ]
#3603457
09/25/12 06:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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I'd say it all depends on how big of a property you are talking about. I hunt on 320 acres just west of the Brazos River in Throckmorton Co. It is a very remote area. One hunting camp directly north of our property and one about 6 miles south.
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603479
09/25/12 06:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,226
Rustler
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,226 |
The question that every hunter who reads these posts MUST keep in mind, is who should dictate our laws that control wild deer harvesting. Should it be the TPWD with feedback from the majority of Texas hunters, or members of the QDMA? "MUST keep in mind"   TPWD "might" get feedback from 18% of Texas hunters, it certainly isn't a majority. My answer to your as usual silly arsed question (which has nothing to do with the question the OP asked), is neither. Each property that wants to "manage" should be assessed in person by a qualified manager or biologist before doing anything besides simple habitat improvement.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Rustler]
#3603527
09/25/12 07:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,410
Tye
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,410 |
Can someone please post me one study that shows "culling" bucks on a low fenced property actually works? I can tell you that after managing our 670 hf hill county ranch since 1995, we have seen little change in the antlers grown. Every area will usually have a peak size. I know around Ranger, a good 5.5 to 6.5 year old buck will be in the 140s. Sure some might get a little bigger, but overall, they peak around that 140s mark.
The most one can do is get the carrying capacity near normal, try and get a close buck to die ratio, provide as much feed as you can and lastly pray for rain early in the Spring and Summer. Oh, almost forgot, let the bucks age and shoot the old does
If you shoot a young deer because a neighbor will shoot it, you are that neighbor.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3603545
09/25/12 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,280
Texas Dan
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,280 |
Dan,
let me ask you a question? Do you own or professionally manage a property for whitetail deer? No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Honestly, my golf game is horrible. But that doesn't mean I haven't been successful in learning from others, exactly what it takes to execute a perfect swing.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3603561
09/25/12 07:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,625
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,625 |
The question that every hunter who reads these posts MUST keep in mind, is who should dictate our laws that control wild deer harvesting. Should it be the TPWD with feedback from the majority of Texas hunters, or members of the QDMA? TPWD doesn't manage or set property limits only individual limits. Our herd has been and will be controlled and managed via hunters and land owners. I have no idea what your issue is with qdma or a qdm type management plan is? I guess it from a total lack of understanding of what it is kind of like the Kerr study... I hardly see TPWD being able to push a qdm or tdm type plan on anyone, especially when they all ready give you a choice to step out of the blanket tag system and season dates.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3603567
09/25/12 07:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152 |
I didn't know I would be rocking the boat with my post. Sure wasn't my intention. I don't know a thing about QDMA. I just couldn't figure out how to manage a herd on a low fence property like mine.
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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