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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Curly]
#882810
09/02/09 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,782
Lazy L
OP
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OP
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I tell you what, I am up to speed now between this post and the other one!
"Hey running' buddy what'll say to a twelve pack" 
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Lazy L]
#886408
09/04/09 07:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Mine's gone  Someone peed in the pool and we all had to get out. And I think we were close to getting them all to confess that AR's were a bunch oh hoopla. Hey, you know what? That thread being deleted is just like AR's. The dink who got the thread deleted ended up taking out the whole herd. Talk about ironic.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886418
09/04/09 07:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
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Posts: 1,258 |
Ok... I'll toss some info into the pot...
First of all... to say that AR's are about Trophy bucks is a stretch... A much better system of restrictions could be worked out to manage strictly for antlers... As it is with a 13" rule... the deer with the MOST potential are available to be killed at the earliest age...
Having more mature deer in the herd increases the chance that a doe will be bred and "take" on her first cycle, thus shortening the breeding season. This improves individual buck health because they will not be forced into chasing does on cycles into march... increasing buck mortality... and will lessen the amount of late born fawns that would tend to be short horned spikes their next year (and shot on that spike tag)...
More mature deer are also more evasive... if you increase the age structure of the deer herd... you can eventually add more buck tags on the same NUMBER of deer in county if their average age is higher. Their movement habits will limit hunter harvest as effectively as lower limits do now... which is a bonus if you hunt hard... and probably a negative if you just want to get into the woods and get out.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886421
09/04/09 08:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
Rustler
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225 |
Mine's gone Someone peed in the pool and we all had to get out. And I think we were close to getting them all to confess that AR's were a bunch oh hoopla. Hey, you know what? That thread being deleted is just like AR's. The dink who got the thread deleted ended up taking out the whole herd. Talk about ironic. Yeah, but if that dink is under 13" he is protected so you gotta let him walk so he can spread more dink genes.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#886431
09/04/09 08:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Ok... I'll toss some info into the pot...
First of all... to say that AR's are about Trophy bucks is a stretch... A much better system of restrictions could be worked out to manage strictly for antlers... I completely agree. However, TPWD knows we wouldn't go for it, so they did the next best thing. Having more mature deer in the herd increases the chance that a doe will be bred and "take" on her first cycle, thus shortening the breeding season. This improves individual buck health because they will not be forced into chasing does on cycles into march... increasing buck mortality... and will lessen the amount of late born fawns that would tend to be short horned spikes their next year (and shot on that spike tag)... But according to TPWD my county has record numbers. So why do I need to worry about breeding success??? More mature deer are also more evasive... if you increase the age structure of the deer herd... you can eventually add more buck tags on the same NUMBER of deer in county if their average age is higher. Their movement habits will limit hunter harvest as effectively as lower limits do now... which is a bonus if you hunt hard... and probably a negative if you just want to get into the woods and get out. If they are more evasive you don't need more buck tags. You need an open season.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886435
09/04/09 08:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
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The second comment makes me question whether you understood what you were commenting on...
The third comment makes me wonder what the heck you are talking about.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#886451
09/04/09 08:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
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The second comment makes me question whether you understood what you were commenting on...
The third comment makes me wonder what the heck you are talking about.
Le me break it down. 1 - You said the doe would have a better chance to "take" during breeding. Why do I care? TPWD tells me we have way to many deer already. 2 - Yo sadi the deer would become more evasive. I really have two parts to this. First, if they are more evasive, what the heck is two buck tags going to do for you? Do they suddenly become less evasive and run to you if you have two tags? Secondly, if they do become evasive, they will never be shot and your buck ratio will be too high requiring an open season to give hunters an opportunity to thin them suckers out. Capish?
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886459
09/04/09 08:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,537
txhunter24
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,537 |
More evasive....HMMMM maybe thats why I only saw one little fork horn buck the whole season in Eastland Co. (an AR county) Yet my game cam was full of 130" bucks at night then poof they were gone.
 Every good and perfect gift is from above . James 1:17
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: txhunter24]
#886483
09/04/09 08:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
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Having more mature deer in the herd increases the chance that a doe will be bred and "take" on her first cycle, thus shortening the breeding season. This improves individual buck health because they will not be forced into chasing does on cycles into march... increasing buck mortality... and will lessen the amount of late born fawns that would tend to be short horned spikes their next year (and shot on that spike tag)...
The TPWD data says, 90% breeding success,... NOT A PROBLEM !! This age structure fenom is smoke and mirrors. TPWD does not have any age structure data. Processing facilities deal in dead deer, the deer with age structure are still in the pasture. And TPWD doesn't do age structure surveys. It is all theoretical, and sounds pretty, but there is no data in ANY of the AR counties to back it up, or even suggest that Age Structure is a problem !! Moreover there IS data that shows 90% fawning success....so therefore no age structure problem !!!
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?  TPWD
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: PHishTX]
#886492
09/04/09 08:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 26,548
JCB
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 26,548 |
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: JCB]
#886497
09/04/09 08:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
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Every one of you that has commented on the "breeding success" point have not addressed what I stated at all.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#886499
09/04/09 08:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286 |
Every one of you that has commented on the "breeding success" point have not addressed what I stated at all.
Which is?
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: PHishTX]
#886505
09/04/09 08:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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The TPWD data says, 90% breeding success,... NOT A PROBLEM !!
Moreover there IS data that shows 90% fawning success....so therefore no age structure problem !!! PHish - Great point, please link to that data. I want this topic as factual as possible.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#886512
09/04/09 08:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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More mature deer are also more evasive... if you increase the age structure of the deer herd... you can eventually add more buck tags on the same NUMBER of deer in county if their average age is higher. Their movement habits will limit hunter harvest as effectively as lower limits do now... which is a bonus if you hunt hard... and probably a negative if you just want to get into the woods and get out. Amo, If you are referring to this, you have just contradicted yourself again. What does increasing the age structure do for us? Lets say we have 5 buck that are 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 years of age. How that any different than having 5 bucks that are 2.5? I am a fan of the 1 buck limit. Lets say you and I have a one buck limit. You take your trophy and I will take whatever steps out. Your kill does me no harm as that is not what I am after and my kill does you no harm. There are still 3 2.5 year old deer out there for next year.
Last edited by txfour; 09/04/09 08:53 PM.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#886544
09/04/09 09:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
Rustler
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225 |
First of all... to say that AR's are about Trophy bucks is a stretch... A much better system of restrictions could be worked out to manage strictly for antlers... As it is with a 13" rule... the deer with the MOST potential are available to be killed at the earliest age... It may be a stretch in your opinion but that doesn't make the opinion of those that oppose AR's invalid. Its just as far of a stretch to think AR's are based on anything resembling sound management. To me killing the deer with the most potential makes absolutely no sense in anything resembling a legitimate management practice. Having more mature deer in the herd increases the chance that a doe will be bred and "take" on her first cycle, thus shortening the breeding season. This improves individual buck health because they will not be forced into chasing does on cycles into march... increasing buck mortality... and will lessen the amount of late born fawns that would tend to be short horned spikes their next year (and shot on that spike tag)... I agree on most of this and believe you know more about it than I do. But AR's target the mature deer. I don't understand how your scenario would play out if you have 3 13" or better bucks that frequent your 300 acre hunting spot when all 3 are killed during archery season or within the first week of gun season. That may not happen where you're from but it has happened way too many times over the last 34 years where Ive hunted. More mature deer are also more evasive... if you increase the age structure of the deer herd... you can eventually add more buck tags on the same NUMBER of deer in county if their average age is higher. Their movement habits will limit hunter harvest as effectively as lower limits do now... which is a bonus if you hunt hard... and probably a negative if you just want to get into the woods and get out. In the crowded hunting areas around the big cities hunters are as thick as the leaves on a tree. It doesn't matter how evasive a deer tries to be when you have 7 hunters on 171 acres all tagging out year after year and the neighbors for miles around have the same mentality and practices. Now they get to kill 2 more each. These same hunters complain about not seeing enough deer, so lets give them more time and a higher limit to shoot out the whole county. This scenario is not as uncommon as you may think. How do you increase the age structure when you aren't protecting the mature deer. I don't get it.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886592
09/04/09 09:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286 |
Somone was kind enough to PM me a link to this data. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antler_restrictions/First off, I have no clue as to how the data was collected, so, taken at face value, it is junk to me. Now, here is what I see that is troublesome to me. 1. The write up refers to the creation of AR's as poor age structure and poor hunter satisfaction. I have never been un-satisfied, if I were, I would pass on the animal and take the next, but, that's not what i am in it for to begin with. 2. They also admit that more yearlings and spike were harvested when this was implemented. What would those deer have grown to be? 3. Then they go on to show how many 13"+ plus deer were harvested between 2002 (onset of AR's in 6 counties) and 2008. The peak was in 2007 with 653 deer. Unfortunately the following had dropped back down to the second lowest harvest of the program. So, it only took 5 years to be back where they started?? What happened to age structure corrects everything?? 4. They go on to say that buck harvest will drop until the animal reaches an age that allows him to be 13". Funny, I thought genetics did that, not age. 5. In another paragraph they say "This is not a trophy buck program", but then turn and leave hope that it will possibly results in better quality deer. Not it will or wont but possibly. And here's one of my favorites. 6. First, they sell the deal telling you that 43% of critters harvested the first year are spikes. Then they go on later to sell it to you again and say spikes are less of an incidence than people think. After that, I quit highlighting their points, just redundant ramble to sell a package.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#886623
09/04/09 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,191
Rowney
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,191 |
Ok... I'll toss some info into the pot...
First of all... to say that AR's are about Trophy bucks is a stretch... A much better system of restrictions could be worked out to manage strictly for antlers... As it is with a 13" rule... the deer with the MOST potential are available to be killed at the earliest age...
Having more mature deer in the herd increases the chance that a doe will be bred and "take" on her first cycle, thus shortening the breeding season. This improves individual buck health because they will not be forced into chasing does on cycles into march... increasing buck mortality... and will lessen the amount of late born fawns that would tend to be short horned spikes their next year (and shot on that spike tag)...
More mature deer are also more evasive... if you increase the age structure of the deer herd... you can eventually add more buck tags on the same NUMBER of deer in county if their average age is higher. Their movement habits will limit hunter harvest as effectively as lower limits do now... which is a bonus if you hunt hard... and probably a negative if you just want to get into the woods and get out. I guess I am missing the point, because everything he is saying is correct. Point #1, you can't manage on horns alone, age has to be factored (among other things), and the state AR's do not do that. We have 2.5 yr old 8's and 10's all over our place that are 14-16" wide. That is the last animal you want out of the herd. Point #2, more mature animals make for a better herd. I have in the past shot mature deer after Christmas that only weighed 85 LBS after being gutted (San Saba cnty). That is due to the fact that they have been chasing does for 2 months because the herd cycles are off. Its taken some time, but our animal weight has gone up, and the amount of late fawns have dropped, due to managing the herd age, along with horns, feeding plan, etc...Thus we have a healthier buck population, as well as better horns, with a more stable rut pattern. point #3, if hunter (a) goes out, busts his butt and is rewarded with a quality mature deer, he should get a chance at another. Hunters who dont put in the time, just sit in a blind and wait for the first animal to pop out are not doing their part to help the overall herd genetics ( I am generalizing here). So, having a more mature herd would allow a greater number of tags to be handed out (but not necessarily all used), to allow the same number of deer to be shot, but the deer taken would be of better quality and age, thus continuing a cycle that would create an overall healthier population. IMO, AR's in their current state, do not do any good. The deer that need to be taken out are not, and a majority of deer that need to grow are shot at an early age.
As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind...Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks--Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Rowney]
#886664
09/04/09 10:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286 |
IMO, AR's in their current state, do not do any good. The deer that need to be taken out are not, and a majority of deer that need to grow are shot at an early age. Amen! You receive a gold star for your wisdom.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886698
09/04/09 11:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 505
GSS
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 505 |
txfour said - " First, they sell the deal telling you that 43% of critters harvested the first year are spikes. Then they go on later to sell it to you again and say spikes are less of an incidence than people think."
In an area or county dominated by 2-1/2 or less y/o bucks, and they introduce AR's, it is no surprise that the first year harvest is dominated by spikes. Not many mature 13" bucks available!!
Then the numbers dropped per year...maybe you are being selective in your reading and criticism?
From the P&W text:
"The table to the right shows the number of legal deer brought to the voluntary check stations during each year of the experimental regulation. During the first year, roughly 43% of all bucks checked were "spikes." For the purposes of this report, the term "spikes" includes all deer with at least one unbranched antler. The statewide harvest data indicates that 95% of all deer with at least 1 unbranched antler have less than a total of 4 points. During the second year of the regulation, only about 31% of all bucks brought to check stations were "spikes." The harvest of spikes dropped to only 20% (of the total buck harvest) during the final year (2004-05) of the experiment. This is not a result of there being fewer spikes during the second and third years. Rather, this is a result of far more bucks with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater - simply because there were a lot more 3.5- and 4.5-year-old bucks than ever before. With so many more "quality" bucks available for harvest, and only 1 buck tag available, few hunters chose to use their only buck tag on a spike. The likely result was high-grading of the buck population. Therefore, the regulation was modified (adding a second buck to the bag, which must be restricted to a buck with at least 1 unbranched antler) to allow more hunting opportunity while minimizing the risk of high-grading. As a result, the incidence of "spikes" in the harvest increased slightly as expected."
NRA Life
TSRA Life
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: GSS]
#886768
09/05/09 12:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286 |
txfour said - " First, they sell the deal telling you that 43% of critters harvested the first year are spikes. Then they go on later to sell it to you again and say spikes are less of an incidence than people think."
In an area or county dominated by 2-1/2 or less y/o bucks, and they introduce AR's, it is no surprise that the first year harvest is dominated by spikes. Not many mature 13" bucks available!!
Then the numbers dropped per year...maybe you are being selective in your reading and criticism?
From the P&W text:
"The table to the right shows the number of legal deer brought to the voluntary check stations during each year of the experimental regulation. During the first year, roughly 43% of all bucks checked were "spikes." For the purposes of this report, the term "spikes" includes all deer with at least one unbranched antler. The statewide harvest data indicates that 95% of all deer with at least 1 unbranched antler have less than a total of 4 points. During the second year of the regulation, only about 31% of all bucks brought to check stations were "spikes." The harvest of spikes dropped to only 20% (of the total buck harvest) during the final year (2004-05) of the experiment. This is not a result of there being fewer spikes during the second and third years. Rather, this is a result of far more bucks with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater - simply because there were a lot more 3.5- and 4.5-year-old bucks than ever before. With so many more "quality" bucks available for harvest, and only 1 buck tag available, few hunters chose to use their only buck tag on a spike. The likely result was high-grading of the buck population. Therefore, the regulation was modified (adding a second buck to the bag, which must be restricted to a buck with at least 1 unbranched antler) to allow more hunting opportunity while minimizing the risk of high-grading. As a result, the incidence of "spikes" in the harvest increased slightly as expected." GSS, yes, I am being selective because it is fuzzy math and based on what "they" wanted to record. Dont forget to include paragraph 4 from page 6 where they try to sell it a different way. You know, where they portray they are protecting spikes. Where they say that really there is no second buck to be killed every year because spikes are a false incident.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Jason B]
#886777
09/05/09 12:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366
Curly
Overrated
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Overrated
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366 |
Let's not get this AR thread deleted too! PS......ARs SUCK. ssshhhh 
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Curly]
#886788
09/05/09 12:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
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duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601 |
I will not say AR's suck.
I will not say AR's suck.
I will not say AR's suck.
Do you want me to say AR's suck?
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: Curly]
#886951
09/05/09 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
deerhuntnow
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 42 |
As I have other things to do other than keep up with this ARsux thread this may have already been addressed but have any of you ARsucks.com guys come up with suggestions of a better system to increase the quality of Texas deer?
I am not addressing the KillitIfitMovesBecauseIwant2eatit.com guys.
You will have to assume that quality is a large healthy frame and high scoring rack and balanced buck:doe ratio.
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Re: Antler restrictions
[Re: deerhuntnow]
#886980
09/05/09 03:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286
Jason B
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,286 |
As I have other things to do other than keep up with this ARsux thread this may have already been addressed but have any of you ARsucks.com guys come up with suggestions of a better system to increase the quality of Texas deer?
I am not addressing the KillitIfitMovesBecauseIwant2eatit.com guys.
You will have to assume that quality is a large healthy frame and high scoring rack and balanced buck:doe ratio. It's really quite simple. First you have to determine if what causes you problem is young deer being shot or if it is shatty genetics. In my part of the county, you could let every buck walk for 6 years and you are gonna have a million more basket case bucks. So, you have to either live with it or clean out the inbred herd and bring in some bigger bucks to replenish. However, it really makes me no difference as I am from ikilldeertoeatcuztheracktastelikepoo.com Now for the ohmygoshicantbelievethisbuckmyscentkillerreallyworkedandimenteringthepicturesinacontest.com folks, I really have no clue. I shoot the little ones you shoot the big ones. It all works out.
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