Antler restrictions

New for my county, can some explain it so I am sure on what I am reading.

Thanks for any help.

-Shoot one buck with a spread outside its ears. (greater than 13")

-shoot a second buck (spike or has on unbranched antler)

-shoot how ever many does are in your counties bag limit. (should be two.)

Hope this helps.

That is what I am cofused on..

I have to shoot one to shoot the other?

NO!

You can shoot one or both or none at all!

Actually, you can only shoot 2 bucks, but only one with a 13" spread or better and one unbranched antler deer OR you can shoot 2 one unbranched antler deer, like 2 spikes or 3 points. Deer like that. Doesn't matter which one you shoot first.

This scenario I listed would be you tagged out.

Gotcha, sorry I am just use to shooting 1 buck and being done with it.

Thanks for the help

Remember that according to these new guidelines, an unbranched antler is one that doesn't have any points (excluding the antler tip) that are one inch or more in length. That old saying that anything you can hang a ring on does not apply.

This will be our third year under these restrictions and I've yet to take a spike. I've come close, only to catch a glipse of a brow tine or two hidden behind the ears.

IMO, a decent set of binoculars or good scope is a must to keep from making a mistake.

I will try to bite my tongue or rather tie my fingers and stay outta this AR thread.

why "should it be two"??? in his particular county???????? im pretty sure i cant shoot any does in my county w/out a permit. maybe im missin something. my counties are lavaca and victoria. unless u are reffering to the deer in the bow season, then i getcha! jw.

You can shoot great bucks so they don't breed anymore, or little spikes before we know what they are, you can't shoot the crappy bucks even if they are old, so they can breed more crappy deer, and it's good cause it's better for the health of the herd.

And even though most of the counties can't find one buck worth shooting, now you can have two.

But none of it is about antlers.

I know what your talking about Curly, I believe we feel the same way.

I stayed out all year for the most part. Now that its hunting season again, I want to be the first one this fall to officially welcome everyone to my new website

www.antlerrestrictionssuck.com

Welcome back Sig.

Brandon A you can take 2 does and 2 bucks in your counties...but for your counties you are correct about the permits needed.
www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/season/county_listing/details/?county=Lavaca
www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/season/county_listing/details/?county=Victoria

I assumed he hunts not far from the metromess where 2 bucks and 2 does are the standard bag limits under the AR's

So with the antler restrictions both bucks have to be bigger than 13in right?

nope. only one can be. the other has to be a spike.

Thats what i thought dont make much since to me.

We are not alone on this opinion!

good, i was hoping i wasnt misreading anything lol!

Well just went back to TPWD website and it says something to the effect that will know the restrictions the first 2 days of the general season?

You'll know them after you shoot a nice 12.80 inch deer, or if you have to let an aging 2x6 continue to breed, or if you have to pass on a 9inch 7.5 year old 10 point

hey, we currently have 2 of these topics going on ARs!

I tell you what, I am up to speed now between this post and the other one!

Mine's gone Someone peed in the pool and we all had to get out. And I think we were close to getting them all to confess that AR's were a bunch oh hoopla.

Hey, you know what? That thread being deleted is just like AR's. The dink who got the thread deleted ended up taking out the whole herd. Talk about ironic.

Ok... I'll toss some info into the pot...

First of all... to say that AR's are about Trophy bucks is a stretch... A much better system of restrictions could be worked out to manage strictly for antlers... As it is with a 13" rule... the deer with the MOST potential are available to be killed at the earliest age...

Having more mature deer in the herd increases the chance that a doe will be bred and "take" on her first cycle, thus shortening the breeding season. This improves individual buck health because they will not be forced into chasing does on cycles into march... increasing buck mortality... and will lessen the amount of late born fawns that would tend to be short horned spikes their next year (and shot on that spike tag)...

More mature deer are also more evasive... if you increase the age structure of the deer herd... you can eventually add more buck tags on the same NUMBER of deer in county if their average age is higher. Their movement habits will limit hunter harvest as effectively as lower limits do now... which is a bonus if you hunt hard... and probably a negative if you just want to get into the woods and get out.

Yeah, but if that dink is under 13" he is protected so you gotta let him walk so he can spread more dink genes.

I completely agree. However, TPWD knows we wouldn't go for it, so they did the next best thing.



But according to TPWD my county has record numbers. So why do I need to worry about breeding success???



If they are more evasive you don't need more buck tags. You need an open season.

The second comment makes me question whether you understood what you were commenting on...

The third comment makes me wonder what the heck you are talking about.

Le me break it down.

1 - You said the doe would have a better chance to "take" during breeding.

Why do I care? TPWD tells me we have way to many deer already.

2 - Yo sadi the deer would become more evasive.

I really have two parts to this. First, if they are more evasive, what the heck is two buck tags going to do for you? Do they suddenly become less evasive and run to you if you have two tags? Secondly, if they do become evasive, they will never be shot and your buck ratio will be too high requiring an open season to give hunters an opportunity to thin them suckers out.

Capish?

More evasive....HMMMM maybe thats why I only saw one little fork horn buck the whole season in Eastland Co. (an AR county) Yet my game cam was full of 130" bucks at night then poof they were gone.

The TPWD data says, 90% breeding success,... NOT A PROBLEM !!

This age structure fenom is smoke and mirrors. TPWD does not have any age structure data. Processing facilities deal in dead deer, the deer with age structure are still in the pasture. And TPWD doesn't do age structure surveys.

It is all theoretical, and sounds pretty, but there is no data in ANY of the AR counties to back it up, or even suggest that Age Structure is a problem !!

Moreover there IS data that shows 90% fawning success....so therefore no age structure problem !!!

AR SUCK!!

THATS ALL!

Every one of you that has commented on the "breeding success" point have not addressed what I stated at all.

Which is?

PHish - Great point, please link to that data. I want this topic as factual as possible.

Amo,

If you are referring to this, you have just contradicted yourself again. What does increasing the age structure do for us? Lets say we have 5 buck that are 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 years of age. How that any different than having 5 bucks that are 2.5?

I am a fan of the 1 buck limit. Lets say you and I have a one buck limit. You take your trophy and I will take whatever steps out. Your kill does me no harm as that is not what I am after and my kill does you no harm. There are still 3 2.5 year old deer out there for next year.

It may be a stretch in your opinion but that doesn't make the opinion of those that oppose AR's invalid. Its just as far of a stretch to think AR's are based on anything resembling sound management. To me killing the deer with the most potential makes absolutely no sense in anything resembling a legitimate management practice.


I agree on most of this and believe you know more about it than I do.
But AR's target the mature deer. I don't understand how your scenario would play out if you have 3 13" or better bucks that frequent your 300 acre hunting spot when all 3 are killed during archery season or within the first week of gun season. That may not happen where you're from but it has happened way too many times over the last 34 years where Ive hunted.


In the crowded hunting areas around the big cities hunters are as thick as the leaves on a tree. It doesn't matter how evasive a deer tries to be when you have 7 hunters on 171 acres all tagging out year after year and the neighbors for miles around have the same mentality and practices. Now they get to kill 2 more each. These same hunters complain about not seeing enough deer, so lets give them more time and a higher limit to shoot out the whole county. This scenario is not as uncommon as you may think. How do you increase the age structure when you aren't protecting the mature deer.
I don't get it.

Somone was kind enough to PM me a link to this data.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antler_restrictions/

First off, I have no clue as to how the data was collected, so, taken at face value, it is junk to me.

Now, here is what I see that is troublesome to me.

1. The write up refers to the creation of AR's as poor age structure and poor hunter satisfaction. I have never been un-satisfied, if I were, I would pass on the animal and take the next, but, that's not what i am in it for to begin with.

2. They also admit that more yearlings and spike were harvested when this was implemented. What would those deer have grown to be?

3. Then they go on to show how many 13"+ plus deer were harvested between 2002 (onset of AR's in 6 counties) and 2008. The peak was in 2007 with 653 deer. Unfortunately the following had dropped back down to the second lowest harvest of the program. So, it only took 5 years to be back where they started?? What happened to age structure corrects everything??

4. They go on to say that buck harvest will drop until the animal reaches an age that allows him to be 13". Funny, I thought genetics did that, not age.

5. In another paragraph they say "This is not a trophy buck program", but then turn and leave hope that it will possibly results in better quality deer. Not it will or wont but possibly.

And here's one of my favorites.

6. First, they sell the deal telling you that 43% of critters harvested the first year are spikes. Then they go on later to sell it to you again and say spikes are less of an incidence than people think.

After that, I quit highlighting their points, just redundant ramble to sell a package.

I guess I am missing the point, because everything he is saying is correct.

Point #1, you can't manage on horns alone, age has to be factored (among other things), and the state AR's do not do that. We have 2.5 yr old 8's and 10's all over our place that are 14-16" wide. That is the last animal you want out of the herd.

Point #2, more mature animals make for a better herd. I have in the past shot mature deer after Christmas that only weighed 85 LBS after being gutted (San Saba cnty). That is due to the fact that they have been chasing does for 2 months because the herd cycles are off. Its taken some time, but our animal weight has gone up, and the amount of late fawns have dropped, due to managing the herd age, along with horns, feeding plan, etc...Thus we have a healthier buck population, as well as better horns, with a more stable rut pattern.

point #3, if hunter (a) goes out, busts his butt and is rewarded with a quality mature deer, he should get a chance at another. Hunters who dont put in the time, just sit in a blind and wait for the first animal to pop out are not doing their part to help the overall herd genetics ( I am generalizing here). So, having a more mature herd would allow a greater number of tags to be handed out (but not necessarily all used), to allow the same number of deer to be shot, but the deer taken would be of better quality and age, thus continuing a cycle that would create an overall healthier population.


IMO, AR's in their current state, do not do any good. The deer that need to be taken out are not, and a majority of deer that need to grow are shot at an early age.

Amen! You receive a gold star for your wisdom.

txfour said - " First, they sell the deal telling you that 43% of critters harvested the first year are spikes. Then they go on later to sell it to you again and say spikes are less of an incidence than people think."

In an area or county dominated by 2-1/2 or less y/o bucks, and they introduce AR's, it is no surprise that the first year harvest is dominated by spikes. Not many mature 13" bucks available!!
Then the numbers dropped per year...maybe you are being selective in your reading and criticism?

From the P&W text:

"The table to the right shows the number of legal deer brought to the voluntary check stations during each year of the experimental regulation. During the first year, roughly 43% of all bucks checked were "spikes." For the purposes of this report, the term "spikes" includes all deer with at least one unbranched antler. The statewide harvest data indicates that 95% of all deer with at least 1 unbranched antler have less than a total of 4 points. During the second year of the regulation, only about 31% of all bucks brought to check stations were "spikes." The harvest of spikes dropped to only 20% (of the total buck harvest) during the final year (2004-05) of the experiment. This is not a result of there being fewer spikes during the second and third years. Rather, this is a result of far more bucks with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater - simply because there were a lot more 3.5- and 4.5-year-old bucks than ever before. With so many more "quality" bucks available for harvest, and only 1 buck tag available, few hunters chose to use their only buck tag on a spike. The likely result was high-grading of the buck population. Therefore, the regulation was modified (adding a second buck to the bag, which must be restricted to a buck with at least 1 unbranched antler) to allow more hunting opportunity while minimizing the risk of high-grading. As a result, the incidence of "spikes" in the harvest increased slightly as expected."

GSS, yes, I am being selective because it is fuzzy math and based on what "they" wanted to record. Dont forget to include paragraph 4 from page 6 where they try to sell it a different way. You know, where they portray they are protecting spikes. Where they say that really there is no second buck to be killed every year because spikes are a false incident.

Let's not get this AR thread deleted too! PS......ARs SUCK. ssshhhh

I will not say AR's suck.
I will not say AR's suck.
I will not say AR's suck.

Do you want me to say AR's suck?

I double dog dare ya!

As I have other things to do other than keep up with this ARsux thread this may have already been addressed but have any of you ARsucks.com guys come up with suggestions of a better system to increase the quality of Texas deer?
I am not addressing the KillitIfitMovesBecauseIwant2eatit.com guys.
You will have to assume that quality is a large healthy frame and high scoring rack and balanced buck:doe ratio.

It's really quite simple.

First you have to determine if what causes you problem is young deer being shot or if it is shatty genetics.

In my part of the county, you could let every buck walk for 6 years and you are gonna have a million more basket case bucks. So, you have to either live with it or clean out the inbred herd and bring in some bigger bucks to replenish. However, it really makes me no difference as I am from ikilldeertoeatcuztheracktastelikepoo.com

Now for the ohmygoshicantbelievethisbuckmyscentkillerreallyworkedandimenteringthepicturesinacontest.com folks, I really have no clue.

I shoot the little ones you shoot the big ones. It all works out.

deerhuntnow what txfour is saying is that you trophy hunters are being fooled. You think that the AR's in place allow bigger racks when this is not the case. For every trophy buck that is shot there are 10 basket rack bucks left to walk and spread their love under the protection of the AR. Any buck with a greater than 13" spread will be shot no matterhow old he is. How does that make bigger racks? Yes you will have older deer but you will have quality that gets worse and worse every year. I am now done with this thread because it cant be explained any simpler than that. good night.

Txfour
We have common ground here and you have hit upon a very good point. Genetic diversity (and/or better genetics).
If TPWD would release deer with higher quality (and different) genetics around the state I have no doubt that it would greatly improve the quality of our deer. But we would still have to have a plan in place so that the KillitifitwalksbecauseIwanttoeatit.com guys dont mow them down. We still need to do something about the hunting pressure to give the new blood a chance.

I am glad that you have 130 class deer on your place. It is now up to you as a hunter to be able to harvest these deer. It is all about the hunt.

deerhuntnow my point is the bucks turned nocturnal, and there were more inferior illegal bucks running around than the 130's. Eastland Co. has been an AR county for years now. Im just saying from what I've seen I'm not impressed, and I think you agree about the inferior genetics that are spared under these rules. Thats my only gripe. I love the challenge of the hunt.

Acorns are dropping and I think it will be an early rut. Good luck.

Seeing how we all gotta live with ARs (#@$!@&*%), I just hope everyone gets what they want this season, whether it's venison, bragging rights, just seeing deer........whatever peels your banana!

AR's SUCK I might get a bumper sticker that says that

Becareful... Might want to make sure it says Antler Restrictions not AR's

IF there were proper genetics, but its 300 miles to Red River County, and it's just not the same deer. LIke someone said above, we could stop hunting all deer for several years, and the woods would be filled with bucks we can't shoot. 90percent of the ones getting shot are only legal as spikes, very few 13inch deer... and fewer deer of everytype each year

Well look here Vern, I told ya there would be another AR thread. I'm for AR's Vern, how about you?

I am reserving opinion until my new website is up....

Hagermann Deer were imported, not native.

There were no check stations in NE Texas since 1980.

If their data is so great and proves their point, why won't they release it?

I have asked personally. It's not available unless you formally file a Freedom of Information Act Request and pay for the time and expenses of LOCATING IT, copying it, and mailing it. They said it was volumnus, and said it would be very expensive.

Most of the tracts here are too small for MLD. And most landowners want no part of state government accessing their land.

Sure if all you are doing is hunting property, that all seems fine.

The vast majority of the deer we have seen, killed, or saw that someone else killed over the last 30years have been 11inch 8 points at 5-7 years old. So IF it had the genetics it would have been better by then. But what happens, is that it gets to keep breeding, while the one that might have decent genetics and be over 13, gets shot.

I am all for having a trophy deer.

I am a realist, and I know that a trophy is in the eyes of a beholder. In deep NE Texas, a 12.75 inch old 8 or 10 point is a trophy. Only an idiot would expect the deer in Red River County to have the same antlers as Archer County or Real County.

Do fisherman expect all bass to be trophy bass? Are Lake Meredith Big Bass ever going to be bigger than Lake Fork's Big Bass?

Maybe we need to stop fishing, or wait, we can keep the ones under 2 pounds or over 8 pounds, hey slot deer hunting!

Maybe they could have gotten more support if they called it a slot instead of Antler Restrictions.

Note: Many don't know me, but in a short verse I don't like AR's, or much other government involvement in my life. Seems that some people read a few post and become experts. Or preach that we should complain other places or "get involved", believe me I am involved directly. I actively hunt deer 40 days a year, and manage and see deer more than that year around in 7 different counties in three distinct regions of our great State. I am very very lucky in that regard, blessed actually. I know what trophy deer are, and where they come from, and what to expect from each region. I don't claim to be a biologist or an expert when it comes to deer. But I am not a newby, search-engine PhD, or a general idiot. I encourage you all to make informed decisions yourselves, not repeat mantra that a government agency has instilled in you.

I am hereby resigning from the Anti Antler Restriction Threads.

From now on, I am all for antler restrictions........ Now I am going to have a glass of wine, listen to KennyG and check my stock portfolio...then buff my Texas Trophy Hunter Window Decal so it shines bright on 635 Tuesday.

You cant resighn! Meat hunters like me need ya! Peel that sticker off and get ya one that says VENISON ITS WHAT FOR DINNER!

I'll still be around fighting the good fight! Venison, the other white meat!

TP&W makes me the maddest.

Gonna be vacating in New Braufels tomorrow thru Friday....won't be near a computer but I'll be around on the forum off and on till we leave but in my absence, all you fellow AR opposers, keep on keeping on till I return!

Don't matter, don't like 'em....gotta live with 'em if I'm gonna keep deer huntin' but don't gotta like 'em.

Really?????? Deer taste better today than they did in the 70's or 80's????? That's weird. My taste buds must be week because I haven't noticed any difference.

I did it!!!!!!!!!!!!

AR's

I hunt in East Texas - Deer are always really tall but not so wide, however you will see a 16"-18" deer once in a while. It's hard for the kids..no, no son thats a mature 4-5 year old 8 point with a 10" spread. He will never be any more than what he is today but you cant shoot him, we will just keep pumping the feed to him so he can keep producing cull deer that you cant take.

This rule may be great in South Texas, I've hunted there also, but I've always have practiced 8 point or better and mature deer.

Comments - anyone else having the same issue?

Yessir, in the part of Wood County where I hunt, it's a big issue.

I hunt in Tyler County which is a 2 buck, 2 doe county. It went AR this year and I'm not sure that if they just change it to a 1 buck, 2 doe county if they wouldn't have accomplished the idea of letting more of the younger bucks survive!!! Either way, I've passed on the younger bucks anyway!!!

Yep TPWD makes recommendation to them and some of them were happy with it. Good for them.

I can't figure out why TPWD thinks they needed to make it a regulation. Heck they could put it out there as a RECOMMENDATION for anyone that wants to follow it. That was no need for this to be a regulation (based on a complaints by a Co-op). TPWD made up data, and extrapolated it to be a statewide problem al because:

"...the original 7 counties was going to tpwd and austin wanting them to improve the deer herd b/c the hunting pressure was high and many young deer were killed."

Oh TXfour,
Look under TPWD site's Deer Management section. There is a publication called "Rut in the Whitetailed deer" or something like that. I've referenced it in some of my previous posts.