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Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
#7350426
11/16/18 06:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992
ChadTRG42
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I get calls all the time from shooters who need to match up their ammo to the BDC or custom turrets of their scope. Here's a call I just got regarding the 28 Nosler. My customer built a full custom rifle and is paired up with a high end Vortex HD scope with a custom turret. The turret was programmed for factory 28 Nosler with the 175 LR AB (long range Accubond) bullet. Now the factory Nosler ammo box says, as well as the Nosler Website link promote 3125 fps with 175 LR AB bullet. This customer has the factory ammo chronographed and documented to make this "custom turret" for their high end scope. The ammo chronographed at 2915 fps. So here's the issue. The factory ammo runs 2915 fps in his rifle. My 28 Nosler ammo easily runs 3150-3180 with the same bullet in the same length barrel. That's 265 fps LESS than what the 28 Nosler is capable of. The problem my customer is having is the factory ammo shoots very poor in his rifle, and slow. He wants to change to a better load or more consistent ammo, but he wants his turret to line up also. So I have to load my 28 Nosler ammo down to what the turret is set for. His high end 28 Nolser is now just a 7 Rem Mag. Sure it will work just fine, and the 7 Mag is a great round. My point is, the velocity on the factory ammo box is often not the actual velocity you are getting. And in his case, he's not getting the 28 Nosler performance that he bought!
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350480
11/16/18 06:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
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QuitShootinYoungBucks
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I chrono'd your loads, they were off 60-80 fps from what the box says. The Hornady I chrono'd matched their box. Same day/gun/time/chrono. Now I can see how your chrono and mine don't match up, but apparently mine and Hornady's do. 6.5 143 24" with a suppressor. Fireman says my rifle hasn't 'sped up' yet, but that will mean with Hornady I'll be getting FASTER than what the box says.
YMMV, as may everybody else's.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350492
11/16/18 07:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,600
kmon11
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New rifle might also peed up some after a couple hundred shots which would make the new turret wrong even if right for the current data.
I will not get custom turrets but if I did it would be for a rifle shot enough to ne settled in and would also know to expect it to be a bit off from factory data.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350493
11/16/18 07:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
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DH3
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Does factory load specify barrel length? Chronographs can vary (a lot}. A number of factors can contribute to the difference between your results and the factories. Easy to blame ammo when you do not have all the facts to make a fair assessment.
Old age and treachery beats youth and stupid every time!
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350504
11/16/18 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,445
onlysmith&wesson
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I get calls all the time from shooters who need to match up their ammo to the BDC or custom turrets of their scope. Here's a call I just got regarding the 28 Nosler. My customer built a full custom rifle and is paired up with a high end Vortex HD scope with a custom turret. The turret was programmed for factory 28 Nosler with the 175 LR AB (long range Accubond) bullet. Now the factory Nosler ammo box says, as well as the Nosler Website link promote 3125 fps with 175 LR AB bullet. This customer has the factory ammo chronographed and documented to make this "custom turret" for their high end scope. The ammo chronographed at 2915 fps. So here's the issue. The factory ammo runs 2915 fps in his rifle. My 28 Nosler ammo easily runs 3150-3180 with the same bullet in the same length barrel. That's 265 fps LESS than what the 28 Nosler is capable of. The problem my customer is having is the factory ammo shoots very poor in his rifle, and slow. He wants to change to a better load or more consistent ammo, but he wants his turret to line up also. So I have to load my 28 Nosler ammo down to what the turret is set for. His high end 28 Nolser is now just a 7 Rem Mag. Sure it will work just fine, and the 7 Mag is a great round. My point is, the velocity on the factory ammo box is often not the actual velocity you are getting. And in his case, he's not getting the 28 Nosler performance that he bought! He should get a turret for your ammo; just as easily as he got the first one. They cost about 1/2 of what 100 rounds of ammo costs. He got it backwards. Settle on an accurate, consistent, easily obtained ammo then order the dial. That's what I did with two Leupold CDS dials. I'm on my first one for 4 years, no issues.
An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350516
11/16/18 07:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,570
garyrapp55
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So what happens if the slower ammo you make to match the turrets he has doesn't shoot worth a poop? You can't control harmonics, you can just find the sweet spot/s. As you know Chad, there are things I don't know or know well in this hobby but seems to me he/she has put the cart before the horse.
Last edited by garyrapp55; 11/16/18 09:08 PM.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: garyrapp55]
#7350546
11/16/18 07:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,600
kmon11
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So what happens if the slower ammo you make to match the turrets he has doesn't shoot worth a poop? You can't control harmonics, you can just find the sweet spot/s. As you know Chad, there are things I don't know or know well in this hobby but seems to me he/she has put the horse before the cart. You have the right idea there but think it is cart before the horse
Last edited by kmon1; 11/16/18 07:59 PM.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: garyrapp55]
#7350562
11/16/18 08:22 PM
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ChadTRG42
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So what happens if the slower ammo you make to match the turrets he has doesn't shoot worth a poop? You can't control harmonics, you can just find the sweet spot/s. As you know Chad, there are things I don't know or know well in this hobby but seems to me he/she has put the horse before the cart. You're exactly right. When I have to drop down to match the velocity to an existing bullet, I'm handicapping the round. I'm taking it out of my known sweet spot for the 28 Nosler. The accuracy is more unknown, and kind of you get what you get. Sure it should shoot good anyway, but why the much lower speed? It doesn't make sense to me. I'm on the other end of the phone call shaking my head. I see this all the time.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#7350564
11/16/18 08:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992
ChadTRG42
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I chrono'd your loads, they were off 60-80 fps from what the box says. The Hornady I chrono'd matched their box. Same day/gun/time/chrono. Now I can see how your chrono and mine don't match up, but apparently mine and Hornady's do. 6.5 143 24" with a suppressor. Fireman says my rifle hasn't 'sped up' yet, but that will mean with Hornady I'll be getting FASTER than what the box says.
YMMV, as may everybody else's.
Yes, my last batch of 6.5 CM is running slightly slower than my last batch. The H4350 powder I'm using does have some variation from lot to lot, and can vary slightly. But not 265 fps!!! I have seen a need to increase the powder charge some to equal the known speeds. But it's still really close. I met a customer out at Jason's range to chrono his Hornady 6.5 CM factory ammo. He said nothing would line up on his drop charts and couldn't figure it out. The Hornady Black box ammo (140 BTHP) was running 2540 fps and the Hornady Match 140 ELD-M was running 2560 fps. Box said 2700 fps. That's a lot of variation! He was mad. He had spent a lot of range time trying to figure out why nothing lined up on his drop chart. I had also brought some of my ammo to shoot. Not only did it shoot better, but it was almost dead on for the velocity which is what he needed.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: kmon11]
#7350602
11/16/18 09:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,570
garyrapp55
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So what happens if the slower ammo you make to match the turrets he has doesn't shoot worth a poop? You can't control harmonics, you can just find the sweet spot/s. As you know Chad, there are things I don't know or know well in this hobby but seems to me he/she has put the horse before the cart. You have the right idea there but think it is cart before the horse you could have fixed it for me, I R slow some days
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350610
11/16/18 09:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
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garyrapp55
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Another glaring thing that comes to mind is $ spent. I already stated my knowledge is limited in this arena but I do know that if Momma lets me spend enough to build a full custom, I'm loading my own or having it loaded. I'm not spending all that dough on a rig to feed it factory ammo. Even I can now SMDH.
Last edited by garyrapp55; 11/16/18 09:17 PM.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350624
11/16/18 09:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992
ChadTRG42
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Gary, I see it very often the backwards planning on the ammo. IOW, making the ammo less optimum for the caliber being shot. As a custom ammo loader, I can do most anything within reason. But heavily downloading a round to match a turret is insane to me. The custom turret idea is a weak link already, and then we reduce the load for the weak link to make the system less effective. It blows my mind.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350643
11/16/18 09:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,570
garyrapp55
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Hey, you got kids to feed. Load it like he said and cash the check. It baffles me too that one can plan a system (or not) without talking to the guys doing the work ahead of time so they can help you get it right. I think I spoke with you 3 times for maybe 10 minutes each time before you got your hands on the stuff. The way I see it, if I trust you enough to hire you to do load development or load for me, I'm at the minimum willing to take in your opinion on a new rifle/ammo combo before I make decisions. Maybe your other customers can afford to learn the hard way, I can't.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: garyrapp55]
#7350658
11/16/18 09:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,600
kmon11
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So what happens if the slower ammo you make to match the turrets he has doesn't shoot worth a poop? You can't control harmonics, you can just find the sweet spot/s. As you know Chad, there are things I don't know or know well in this hobby but seems to me he/she has put the horse before the cart. You have the right idea there but think it is cart before the horse you could have fixed it for me, I R slow some days Gary, I should have just edited that without making a comment then not marked it as edited.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350665
11/16/18 09:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,570
garyrapp55
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350670
11/16/18 09:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,600
kmon11
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Chad, kinda on topic, I agree fully on get the ammo right for the rifle and if buying a high performance rifle in a high performance round like the 28 Nosler why load it to 280 AI velocities. If you are going to do that just get the 280AI. I would not buy a Ferrari to drive only on city streets with a 40mph speed limit.
When putting together a shooting system of rifle/scope/carefully developed ammo, I would and do pick out wht I want, then it will have at least 200 rounds down the pipe before finihing off load development not just for the load but often things will speed up somewhere around that and stabilize out for much of the barrels life. Then finalize the load and dope charts or if was getting a custom turret for the scope have valid data to build from that will last for lots of the barrels life. (not that I shoot out many barrels)
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350742
11/16/18 10:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,747
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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I chrono'd your loads, they were off 60-80 fps from what the box says. The Hornady I chrono'd matched their box. Same day/gun/time/chrono. Now I can see how your chrono and mine don't match up, but apparently mine and Hornady's do. 6.5 143 24" with a suppressor. Fireman says my rifle hasn't 'sped up' yet, but that will mean with Hornady I'll be getting FASTER than what the box says.
YMMV, as may everybody else's.
Yes, my last batch of 6.5 CM is running slightly slower than my last batch. The H4350 powder I'm using does have some variation from lot to lot, and can vary slightly. But not 265 fps!!! I have seen a need to increase the powder charge some to equal the known speeds. But it's still really close. I met a customer out at Jason's range to chrono his Hornady 6.5 CM factory ammo. He said nothing would line up on his drop charts and couldn't figure it out. The Hornady Black box ammo (140 BTHP) was running 2540 fps and the Hornady Match 140 ELD-M was running 2560 fps. Box said 2700 fps. That's a lot of variation! He was mad. He had spent a lot of range time trying to figure out why nothing lined up on his drop chart. I had also brought some of my ammo to shoot. Not only did it shoot better, but it was almost dead on for the velocity which is what he needed. Yeah, 265 is ridiculous! 140-160 is pretty sad as well. I know your ammo shoots well, that's for sure. This is text book why you don't cut a turret like that-it can all change as a rifle breaks in, as conditions change, ammo, etc.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350836
11/17/18 01:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
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scottfromdallas
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Try to stalk within 300 yards and it won’t matter much.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7350924
11/17/18 02:43 AM
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J.G.
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Learn Mils and this is no longer an issue.
This year, my NF ATACR has been on:
6.5 Creedmoor with 140's @2770 fps .223 A.I. fire forming, 80 gr at 2880 fps .223 A.I. formed, 80 gr at 3185 fps 7 Rem Mag 180 gr at 2920 fps
Same scope, four different loads. Zero it to the rifle, and use a new set of numbers, easy.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7350927
11/17/18 02:43 AM
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J.G.
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Try to stalk within 300 yards and it won’t matter much. Might not be possible, where I've been all week. Which is the mountains of Brewster county, Texas. There's more than flat land, and 40' tall trees, and a feeder at 100 yards in this state.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: J.G.]
#7351100
11/17/18 01:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
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scottfromdallas
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Try to stalk within 300 yards and it won’t matter much. Might not be possible, where I've been all week. Which is the mountains of Brewster county, Texas. There's more than flat land, and 40' tall trees, and a feeder at 100 yards in this state. Anything is possible.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7351171
11/17/18 03:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
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garyrapp55
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This customer has the factory ammo chronographed and documented to make this "custom turret" for their high end scope. So why has he come to you for ammo? Why not buy what he built it for, factory ammo? Did I miss something?
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7351193
11/17/18 03:55 PM
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jeffbird
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Chad,
another option for him to consider is to load the best possible ammo for him.
Then put painter’s tape over the turret and mark yardage as an interim solution.
Then he will have good ammo, and the BDC system he prefers.
In the long run, a new turret, MOA or MIL preferably, is the better answer than substantially downloaded ammo.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7351207
11/17/18 04:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
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txtrophy85
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I hunt that same type country.
Deer most of the time you can get well within 300 yards.
Sheep, sometimes you can sometimes you can’t. Depends on your position.
Imo ammo needs to be within 20-30 FPS of the advertised velocity using the test length barrel.
If I’m shooting a .270 130 grain at 3060 FPS and it’s actually doing 2850 then I’m not really shooting a true .270 win but some watered down variant.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!
[Re: garyrapp55]
#7351236
11/17/18 04:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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ChadTRG42
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This customer has the factory ammo chronographed and documented to make this "custom turret" for their high end scope. So why has he come to you for ammo? Why not buy what he built it for, factory ammo? Did I miss something? They just want to be able to dial within 500 yards easily and quickly to make a shot. They don't want to change anything on the scope at all. This rifle will be used byb more than one individual, from what I understand. And the factory ammo he can't find and the factory ammo does not shoot that great. I've heard this many times on the 28 Nosler factory ammo. That's why I've gone through over 15,000 rounds of 28 Nosler in the last 6-9 months.
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