Big problem with factory ammo velocity!! Getting it to work!

I get calls all the time from shooters who need to match up their ammo to the BDC or custom turrets of their scope. Here's a call I just got regarding the 28 Nosler. My customer built a full custom rifle and is paired up with a high end Vortex HD scope with a custom turret. The turret was programmed for factory 28 Nosler with the 175 LR AB (long range Accubond) bullet. Now the factory Nosler ammo box says, as well as the Nosler Website link promote 3125 fps with 175 LR AB bullet. This customer has the factory ammo chronographed and documented to make this "custom turret" for their high end scope. The ammo chronographed at 2915 fps.

So here's the issue. The factory ammo runs 2915 fps in his rifle. My 28 Nosler ammo easily runs 3150-3180 with the same bullet in the same length barrel. That's 265 fps LESS than what the 28 Nosler is capable of. The problem my customer is having is the factory ammo shoots very poor in his rifle, and slow. He wants to change to a better load or more consistent ammo, but he wants his turret to line up also. So I have to load my 28 Nosler ammo down to what the turret is set for. His high end 28 Nolser is now just a 7 Rem Mag. Sure it will work just fine, and the 7 Mag is a great round.

My point is, the velocity on the factory ammo box is often not the actual velocity you are getting. And in his case, he's not getting the 28 Nosler performance that he bought!

I chrono'd your loads, they were off 60-80 fps from what the box says. The Hornady I chrono'd matched their box. Same day/gun/time/chrono. Now I can see how your chrono and mine don't match up, but apparently mine and Hornady's do. 6.5 143 24" with a suppressor. Fireman says my rifle hasn't 'sped up' yet, but that will mean with Hornady I'll be getting FASTER than what the box says.

YMMV, as may everybody else's.

New rifle might also peed up some after a couple hundred shots which would make the new turret wrong even if right for the current data.

I will not get custom turrets but if I did it would be for a rifle shot enough to ne settled in and would also know to expect it to be a bit off from factory data.

Does factory load specify barrel length? Chronographs can vary (a lot}. A number of factors can contribute to the difference between your results and the factories.
Easy to blame ammo when you do not have all the facts to make a fair assessment.

He should get a turret for your ammo; just as easily as he got the first one. They cost about 1/2 of what 100 rounds of ammo costs. He got it backwards. Settle on an accurate, consistent, easily obtained ammo then order the dial. That's what I did with two Leupold CDS dials. I'm on my first one for 4 years, no issues.

So what happens if the slower ammo you make to match the turrets he has doesn't shoot worth a poop? You can't control harmonics, you can just find the sweet spot/s. As you know Chad, there are things I don't know or know well in this hobby but seems to me he/she has put the cart before the horse.

You have the right idea there but think it is cart before the horse

You're exactly right. When I have to drop down to match the velocity to an existing bullet, I'm handicapping the round. I'm taking it out of my known sweet spot for the 28 Nosler. The accuracy is more unknown, and kind of you get what you get. Sure it should shoot good anyway, but why the much lower speed? It doesn't make sense to me. I'm on the other end of the phone call shaking my head. I see this all the time.

Yes, my last batch of 6.5 CM is running slightly slower than my last batch. The H4350 powder I'm using does have some variation from lot to lot, and can vary slightly. But not 265 fps!!! I have seen a need to increase the powder charge some to equal the known speeds. But it's still really close.

I met a customer out at Jason's range to chrono his Hornady 6.5 CM factory ammo. He said nothing would line up on his drop charts and couldn't figure it out. The Hornady Black box ammo (140 BTHP) was running 2540 fps and the Hornady Match 140 ELD-M was running 2560 fps. Box said 2700 fps. That's a lot of variation! He was mad. He had spent a lot of range time trying to figure out why nothing lined up on his drop chart. I had also brought some of my ammo to shoot. Not only did it shoot better, but it was almost dead on for the velocity which is what he needed.

you could have fixed it for me, I R slow some days

Another glaring thing that comes to mind is $ spent. I already stated my knowledge is limited in this arena but I do know that if Momma lets me spend enough to build a full custom, I'm loading my own or having it loaded. I'm not spending all that dough on a rig to feed it factory ammo. Even I can now SMDH.

Gary, I see it very often the backwards planning on the ammo. IOW, making the ammo less optimum for the caliber being shot. As a custom ammo loader, I can do most anything within reason. But heavily downloading a round to match a turret is insane to me. The custom turret idea is a weak link already, and then we reduce the load for the weak link to make the system less effective. It blows my mind.

Hey, you got kids to feed. Load it like he said and cash the check.
It baffles me too that one can plan a system (or not) without talking to the guys doing the work ahead of time so they can help you get it right. I think I spoke with you 3 times for maybe 10 minutes each time before you got your hands on the stuff. The way I see it, if I trust you enough to hire you to do load development or load for me, I'm at the minimum willing to take in your opinion on a new rifle/ammo combo before I make decisions. Maybe your other customers can afford to learn the hard way, I can't.

Gary, I should have just edited that without making a comment then not marked it as edited.

all's good

Chad, kinda on topic, I agree fully on get the ammo right for the rifle and if buying a high performance rifle in a high performance round like the 28 Nosler why load it to 280 AI velocities. If you are going to do that just get the 280AI. I would not buy a Ferrari to drive only on city streets with a 40mph speed limit.

When putting together a shooting system of rifle/scope/carefully developed ammo, I would and do pick out wht I want, then it will have at least 200 rounds down the pipe before finihing off load development not just for the load but often things will speed up somewhere around that and stabilize out for much of the barrels life. Then finalize the load and dope charts or if was getting a custom turret for the scope have valid data to build from that will last for lots of the barrels life. (not that I shoot out many barrels)

Yeah, 265 is ridiculous! 140-160 is pretty sad as well. I know your ammo shoots well, that's for sure. This is text book why you don't cut a turret like that-it can all change as a rifle breaks in, as conditions change, ammo, etc.

Try to stalk within 300 yards and it won’t matter much.

Learn Mils and this is no longer an issue.

This year, my NF ATACR has been on:

6.5 Creedmoor with 140's @2770 fps
.223 A.I. fire forming, 80 gr at 2880 fps
.223 A.I. formed, 80 gr at 3185 fps
7 Rem Mag 180 gr at 2920 fps

Same scope, four different loads. Zero it to the rifle, and use a new set of numbers, easy.

Might not be possible, where I've been all week. Which is the mountains of Brewster county, Texas. There's more than flat land, and 40' tall trees, and a feeder at 100 yards in this state.

Anything is possible.

So why has he come to you for ammo? Why not buy what he built it for, factory ammo? Did I miss something?

Chad,

another option for him to consider is to load the best possible ammo for him.

Then put painter’s tape over the turret and mark yardage as an interim solution.

Then he will have good ammo, and the BDC system he prefers.

In the long run, a new turret, MOA or MIL preferably, is the better answer than substantially downloaded ammo.

I hunt that same type country.

Deer most of the time you can get well within 300 yards.

Sheep, sometimes you can sometimes you can’t. Depends on your position.



Imo ammo needs to be within 20-30 FPS of the advertised velocity using the test length barrel.


If I’m shooting a .270 130 grain at 3060 FPS and it’s actually doing 2850 then I’m not really shooting a true .270 win but some watered down variant.

They just want to be able to dial within 500 yards easily and quickly to make a shot. They don't want to change anything on the scope at all. This rifle will be used byb more than one individual, from what I understand. And the factory ammo he can't find and the factory ammo does not shoot that great. I've heard this many times on the 28 Nosler factory ammo. That's why I've gone through over 15,000 rounds of 28 Nosler in the last 6-9 months.

Jeff, I 100% agree.

Yeah, that's not possible. There are way too many variables to get that close. Say you loaded up one lot of a specific amount of powder in a round, say 43 grains of H4350 powder in a 6.5 CM, and then changed lots of powder. You can load the same H4350 powder, but a different lot # with the same 43 grains, and get a totally different speed. Once when I changed lots of H4350 powder, I gained 120 fps in my 260 Rem with the same powder charge. The only change was the lot number of H4350.

If you want it within 20-30 fps every time, you will need to get test the new powder lots in your rifle to adjust the speeds. Or, just account for the new speed.

Only way I know of to avoid that is to purchase enough powder, bullets and brass to burn out the barrel of your rifle and roll your own with exact powder charges and uniform case prep. Even then as a barrel gets sot more and ages velocity can change.

Most will never do that

That's what I do. 16 pounds at a time. Out of powder, time for a barrel. Load development once, and run it. Formed brass will speed up the load. And a speed up is likely at 200+ rounds. So up to 200 to 250 rounds, I shoot it a whole bunch. My 7 Rem Mag was built in 2012, and I'm on the same powder lot. I know the corrections are not going to change. Rifle, ammo, Mil scope is one system.

There is so much ridiculousness in this statement that I don’t even know where to start. The fact that anyone thinks they can just read a MV off a box of ammo and consider it representative is just silly. And yes, that goes for the custom ammo maker that’s saying his ammo is better because it just so happens the advertised test MV matched up with the MV of some random rifle. Yes, I’m aware your ammo is probably better, but this is not the reason why.

Here’s a tip folks... muzzle velocities can’t be generalized. There are too many factors. 8 different rifles with the same length barrel are going to have 8 different muzzle velocities with the exact same ammo. Is it enough to make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the circumstances. It’s up to you to figure it out. It’s not hard, and you can get pretty damned close without having a chrono AT ALL! Here’s the catch... you actually have to get out from behind the computer and go shoot. Get some real world dope and back into an accurate MV in the calculator.

Exactly right.

I have never had a problem with Nosler ammo and I shoot a 28 Nosler built by Horizon. Rifle shoots in the .2 with Nosler factory ammo. I also have two other rifle built by Horizon all shoot in the .2 using Nosler factory ammo. Chad I did try your ammo on my 257 WBY, you sent me a sample packet. It was the worst ammo I ever shot. Groups were from 1.25 inches - 2.75 inches. The ammo was so hot, my Bolt was sticking and getting stuck. Your ammo is not always the better choice. I was actually very disappointed with the ammo you sent me. So for now I will stay with Factory ammo.
I’m also getting 3048 FPS from the 175 LR AB Factory ammo.

A couple people have figured out that this blog is being used as a sales pitch...At last!!

Seems I am the only guy on this forum that has to work for rifles to hit 1 MOA consistently and that is with handholds and practice.

I appreciate Chad, FJG, and others, sharing information and experience.

My grand dad used to say, "if you can't do business with your friends, how are you going to do business with your enemies?"

When I have customers coming, I always ask what rifle, scope, and ammo they are bringing. Many have to buy ammo before they come out. I always point them to Chad. And ALWAYS, we get a tight zero at 100 yards, then run out to 800, without issue. Maybe using recently obtained DOPE, backing into muzzle velocity works out differently than what is printed on the ammo box, but it holds very consistent. Once we've got data to 800 yards, box to box will reach out and do the same thing again and again. Maybe the printed data was for a different barrel length than what the end user has. Fine, the MV can be found, without a chronograph.

So Chad has a small handful of customer tales of less than desired results. He also has 1000 fold customers and myself spotting for his ammo that says he does damn good work.

Are you infallible? I am not, and neither is Chad. Weatherby ammo is a pain in the donkey anyway.

Personally I won't reload ammo for a rifle I can't test fire rounds in. That said a few years ago I bought 8 boxes of Remington 30-06 ammo on sale for less than $10. a box. At the next chance I got I went to the range to sight in my 30-06 and to empty some brass for reloading. It was 150 grain PSPCL and out of my rifle the chrony averaged 2987 fps for 10 shots! The rifle is a 03 Springfield with a 2 groove 23" barrel on it. My chrony operator said he had never seen factory ammo come that close to advertised velocity speed. Another oddity was that the reamer that is supposed to clean up the primer pocket did not go to the bottom of the primer pocket so the brass was of no use to me for reloading! It shot OK so I used it some for hunting and it was pretty effective on deer and feral hogs. Don't think my reloads would put in a better performance.

I’ve not purchased or used Chads ammo, however he has taken the time to offer some good information via pm on this site and answer his phone and discuss an issue I had that’s covered in the first sentence of his post. I find his and others willingness to offer their experience, opinions and suggestions to be useful.

If he can get a conversation started about what he experienced and make a sale, that’s even better.

3000 FPS, 30-06 150g Nosler Partiion Trophy Grade. Says it right on the box!!

Two issues at play here;
The first one is the fellow that purchased the 28 Nosler knew what he wanted but didn't have the knowledge to know how to get there. Hopefully he learned the importance of finding a load that shoots to the standard he expects before gathering Dope. We all have to learn. Sometimes mistakes are expensive.
The second is you should not be surprised to see a business man hawk his services. That's just business.