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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txshntr]
#3607117
09/26/12 05:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152 |
Are there any "universal principles" that everyone can agree on about this kind of management? Like nutrition?
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: rtp]
#3607148
09/26/12 06:03 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891 |
I think his point was that there a lot of folks that have never done it and like to throw out their opinions. I'll take the guy that has done it for 20 years over zero experience every time. TO your point, if you arent constantly looking to improve you will fall in a rut. I also believe there is certainly more than one way to get to were you want to go. It all starts with collecting data 100% of the time and then analysing it. If it is trending in the direction you want to go then keep doing what you are doing. If it platues or is going backwards then time to change things up. To the original post, I will say again, genetics is the last thing anyone needs to worry about. Unfortunately it is the first and easiest thing most cite when they shoot a young/small buck. If your buck to doe ratio is out of whack, you shouldnt be shooting any bucks if you want to talk management. Each and every buck is important in this scenario.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3607175
09/26/12 06:11 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,016
SingleShot85
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,016 |
Dr. Kroll, who manages hundreds of thousands of acres, who dosen't advocate shooting spikes.
Dr. Krolls is a yack tard......clearly pushes a self benifiting adgenda. Every time I've read an article he's written or listened to a lecture he's given, he constantly contradicts himself....A$$ hat Altering a wild herds genetics through hunting dang near imposible as BoBo said. Just supply in abbundance what every deer needs...water, food, shelter/space and finally time ie let them mature...which ones you can do consistantly is up to you There is good info in the Kerr study and Kroll will somtimes say something that doesnt make him sound like a idiot....none of these quys/studies are the golden plan or magic bean. It's a constant evolutional process that requires the same from the hunter.
Last edited by SingleShot85; 09/26/12 06:16 PM.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: SingleShot85]
#3607294
09/26/12 06:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258 |
Thank heavens that the Indians intensively managed shooting spikes for the 40,000 years they were here before us, or we wouldn't have any big deer at all. If at any point during the last 50 years we didn't shoot spikes our deer herds would all be made up of 6 year old 5 pointers.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#3607349
09/26/12 07:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891 |
Thank heavens that the Indians intensively managed shooting spikes for the 40,000 years they were here before us, or we wouldn't have any big deer at all. If at any point during the last 50 years we didn't shoot spikes our deer herds would all be made up of 6 year old 5 pointers. Was wondering where you were hiding Indians hunted for meat, not antlers
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txshntr]
#3607386
09/26/12 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258 |
I love the debates, but this one should be over...
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#3607439
09/26/12 07:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891 |
I love the debates, but this one should be over... Surely it wasn't all covered just yet...as far as the spike debate, I would agree. Unless STX shows back up
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txshntr]
#3607998
09/26/12 09:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
We're talking 300 LF acres here, CC kind of goes out the window bc the name of the game is to attract everything around to have the biggest selection of buck in age classes possible. Chances are they won't live there full time so cater to them as much as possible, turn the place into a refuge for them and don't worry so much about pulling the trigger. And for any buck that is undesirable, you have to ask yourself: How did they end up getting there in the first place? Also need to consider that you even get crap offspring inside of a breeder pen with good pedigree.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: rifleman]
#3608842
09/27/12 02:26 AM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,216
kyle1974
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,216 |
Why is this turning into a spike debate?
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: kyle1974]
#3608946
09/27/12 02:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,964
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,964 |
Only spikes I worry about are tire spikes
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: kyle1974]
#3608950
09/27/12 02:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 137
blackdog64-79
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 137 |
Indians kept the buck/ doe ratio in balance that was the secret to their success.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: kyle1974]
#3609074
09/27/12 03:04 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891 |
Why is this turning into a spike debate? Usually comes up anytime someone discusses culling a young deer and Kroll
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txshntr]
#3609106
09/27/12 03:10 AM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,216
kyle1974
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 2,216 |
I wonder about krolls study sometimes. Really haven't got in to it all that much. I just think its a bit of a stretch to study deer on a ranch like lee Wheeler's place and translate those findings into deer for the rest of the state.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: kyle1974]
#3609127
09/27/12 03:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Some studies came from Boggy...those are deer from everywhere.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3609426
09/27/12 05:25 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.
IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined. Lol this is junk.... Flawed and has been proved to be un repeatable....period. Please actually read the study before you push it as biblical. Qdm is based soley off herd health based on cc. Kerr is based of line breeding daddy's with thier daughters, grand daughters, great grand daughter etc...to come out with a statement that hill country spike yearlings will be a small percent smaller via % BC score , then a very distant forked horn cousins from down south Common sense would tell you if culling genetics works....there would be zero 8pt management hunts for sale on every highly managed ranch in Texas. the kerr studies are the only ones ever finding spikes to be undesireable. I find them to be undesireable also.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: rtp]
#3609433
09/27/12 05:39 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,187
OFBHWG
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,187 |
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience!
When you need a Piano moved there is always someone around to help you with the stool!
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: OFBHWG]
#3609847
09/27/12 01:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,550
rtp
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,550 |
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience! Bingo
Let'em grow old
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: OFBHWG]
#3609904
09/27/12 01:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883
TX_Hoghunter
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 883 |
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience! Well said. As far as spikes are concerned the TPWD study has been shoot down by studies all across this country. It was not just the Kroll study. -john
Time to catch a hog..........
A friend of Ken's
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: rtp]
#3609912
09/27/12 01:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,891 |
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience! Bingo It does take age, but age alone will not produce big bucks everywhere. We have a 3500 acre pasture that has had around 9 deer killed out of it in the last 10 years. I can assure you that there are mature deer there, but the surveys and trail cam picks from that pasture show that the mature deer in that pasture are, on average, smaller or around the same as the ones on our managed 6500 acres.
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Re: "Managing Genetics"
[Re: txshntr]
#3612891
09/28/12 11:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,187
OFBHWG
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,187 |
Its hard for folks that lease land to wait. Not sure they will have the place next year, the 75 acres next to them with 4 blinds and feeders, etc. Having the patience to let that deer have birthdays also give the other folks around you with no patience more chances to kill him. Its a chicken or the egg thing i will pass on a borderline deer later in the season (after most folks have quit hunting) than I will earlier in the season. Letting deer have BD is best for big deer but is not always best for the situation that a deer hunter will have when he has made a substantial investment in his season. IMO there is no black and white rule.
When you need a Piano moved there is always someone around to help you with the stool!
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