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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txshntr] #3607117 09/26/12 05:52 PM
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Are there any "universal principles" that everyone can agree on about this kind of management? Like nutrition?


"Like a slice of fried gold!"
Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: rtp] #3607148 09/26/12 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: rtp
I think his point was that there a lot of folks that have never done it and like to throw out their opinions. I'll take the guy that has done it for 20 years over zero experience every time. TO your point, if you arent constantly looking to improve you will fall in a rut. I also believe there is certainly more than one way to get to were you want to go. It all starts with collecting data 100% of the time and then analysing it. If it is trending in the direction you want to go then keep doing what you are doing. If it platues or is going backwards then time to change things up. To the original post, I will say again, genetics is the last thing anyone needs to worry about. Unfortunately it is the first and easiest thing most cite when they shoot a young/small buck. If your buck to doe ratio is out of whack, you shouldnt be shooting any bucks if you want to talk management. Each and every buck is important in this scenario.


cheers


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txtrophy85] #3607175 09/26/12 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85


Dr. Kroll, who manages hundreds of thousands of acres, who dosen't advocate shooting spikes.



Dr. Krolls is a yack tard......clearly pushes a self benifiting adgenda. Every time I've read an article he's written or listened to a lecture he's given, he constantly contradicts himself....A$$ hat

Altering a wild herds genetics through hunting dang near imposible as BoBo said. Just supply in abbundance what every deer needs...water, food, shelter/space and finally time ie let them mature...which ones you can do consistantly is up to you

There is good info in the Kerr study and Kroll will somtimes say something that doesnt make him sound like a idiot....none of these quys/studies are the golden plan or magic bean. It's a constant evolutional process that requires the same from the hunter.

Last edited by SingleShot85; 09/26/12 06:16 PM.
Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: SingleShot85] #3607294 09/26/12 06:53 PM
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Thank heavens that the Indians intensively managed shooting spikes for the 40,000 years they were here before us, or we wouldn't have any big deer at all. If at any point during the last 50 years we didn't shoot spikes our deer herds would all be made up of 6 year old 5 pointers.

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: AmoCuernos] #3607349 09/26/12 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
Thank heavens that the Indians intensively managed shooting spikes for the 40,000 years they were here before us, or we wouldn't have any big deer at all. If at any point during the last 50 years we didn't shoot spikes our deer herds would all be made up of 6 year old 5 pointers.


Was wondering where you were hiding grin

Indians hunted for meat, not antlers popcorn


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txshntr] #3607386 09/26/12 07:16 PM
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I love the debates, but this one should be over...

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: AmoCuernos] #3607439 09/26/12 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: AmoCuernos
I love the debates, but this one should be over...


Surely it wasn't all covered just yet...as far as the spike debate, I would agree. Unless STX shows back up grin


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txshntr] #3607998 09/26/12 09:56 PM
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We're talking 300 LF acres here, CC kind of goes out the window bc the name of the game is to attract everything around to have the biggest selection of buck in age classes possible. Chances are they won't live there full time so cater to them as much as possible, turn the place into a refuge for them and don't worry so much about pulling the trigger. And for any buck that is undesirable, you have to ask yourself: How did they end up getting there in the first place? Also need to consider that you even get crap offspring inside of a breeder pen with good pedigree.

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: rifleman] #3608842 09/27/12 02:26 AM
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Why is this turning into a spike debate?

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: kyle1974] #3608946 09/27/12 02:42 AM
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Only spikes I worry about are tire spikes


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: kyle1974] #3608950 09/27/12 02:43 AM
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Indians kept the buck/ doe ratio in balance that was the secret to their success.

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: kyle1974] #3609074 09/27/12 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: kyle1974
Why is this turning into a spike debate?


Usually comes up anytime someone discusses culling a young deer and Kroll confused2


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txshntr] #3609106 09/27/12 03:10 AM
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I wonder about krolls study sometimes. Really haven't got in to it all that much. I just think its a bit of a stretch to study deer on a ranch like lee Wheeler's place and translate those findings into deer for the rest of the state.

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: kyle1974] #3609127 09/27/12 03:13 AM
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Some studies came from Boggy...those are deer from everywhere.

Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txtrophy85] #3609426 09/27/12 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Texas Dan
IMO, to say that you can't manage genetics equates is akin to saying you don't alter genetics when you remove a deer from the local gene pool. Obviously you do. The debate then becomes that of whether or not hunters can increase that impact through repeated harvest decisions based specific observations. The current AR's are a classic example of that. Based on TPWD research, two-year bucks that don't develop two branched antlers are genetically inferior to their peers. However, this is where the fight begins.

IMO, the ones who are apt to begin foaming at the mouth in objection at this point are the Quality Deer Management or QDM followers. They are usually the first to attack 25 years of TPWD research as being "flawed", and replace it with the position that EVERY young buck should be allowed to walk "until he reaches his full genetic potential." Common sense dictates that in all those additional years, he continues to spread his genetics, even though in their eyes (and against TPWD findings), they have not yet been determined.



Lol this is junk.... Flawed and has been proved to be un repeatable....period.

Please actually read the study before you push it as biblical.

Qdm is based soley off herd health based on cc. Kerr is based of line breeding daddy's with thier daughters, grand daughters, great grand daughter etc...to come out with a statement that hill country spike yearlings will be a small percent smaller via % BC score , then a very distant forked horn cousins from down south

Common sense would tell you if culling genetics works....there would be zero 8pt management hunts for sale on every highly managed ranch in Texas.








the kerr studies are the only ones ever finding spikes to be undesireable.



I find them to be undesireable also.


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: rtp] #3609433 09/27/12 05:39 AM
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Its mostly about Birthdays and patience!


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: OFBHWG] #3609847 09/27/12 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: OFBHWG
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience!


Bingo cheers


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: OFBHWG] #3609904 09/27/12 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: OFBHWG
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience!


Well said.

As far as spikes are concerned the TPWD study has been shoot down by studies all across this country. It was not just the Kroll study.

-john


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: rtp] #3609912 09/27/12 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: rtp
Originally Posted By: OFBHWG
Its mostly about Birthdays and patience!


Bingo cheers


It does take age, but age alone will not produce big bucks everywhere. We have a 3500 acre pasture that has had around 9 deer killed out of it in the last 10 years. I can assure you that there are mature deer there, but the surveys and trail cam picks from that pasture show that the mature deer in that pasture are, on average, smaller or around the same as the ones on our managed 6500 acres.


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Re: "Managing Genetics" [Re: txshntr] #3612891 09/28/12 11:55 AM
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Its hard for folks that lease land to wait. Not sure they will have the place next year, the 75 acres next to them with 4 blinds and feeders, etc. Having the patience to let that deer have birthdays also give the other folks around you with no patience more chances to kill him. Its a chicken or the egg thing i will pass on a borderline deer later in the season (after most folks have quit hunting) than I will earlier in the season. Letting deer have BD is best for big deer but is not always best for the situation that a deer hunter will have when he has made a substantial investment in his season. IMO there is no black and white rule.


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