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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Early Rut?
#98983
10/15/06 11:35 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 274
sasquatch
OP
Bird Dog
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OP
Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 274 |
Just got back from East Texas bow hunt. Saw 2 bucks, only one would make the antler criteria. Both were pushing does. They wouldn't stop long enough for me to shoot. Do you think possibly the drought has caused poor fawn production and they bucks are pushing for an early rut?
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: sasquatch]
#98984
10/15/06 11:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,551
Sethfish
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,551 |
Could be the cold front that passed through that triggered it, those could be some of the first doe that became hot, or with these bucks being in EAST TEXAS they may have just been their sisters  
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: sasquatch]
#98985
10/15/06 12:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474 |
This is just a theory on my part, so take it as you will.
For the past five years or so, I have been seeing bucks with does, year round in variouis parts of the state. I have also been seeing, or getting reports of spotted fawns, as late as Dec. and as early as March.
I feel that just like in some areas around the state where deer have gone to doing more grazing than browsing. In some places to the N.W. of the Metro-mess, as much as 50% of the dietary intake of deer is now grasses and the young wheat and oats that are beginning to grow, that whitetails are going thru an evolutionary process and are going to start breeding year round, due to our changing climatic and moisture patterns, and to their numbers. I think, and again this is just a theory on my part, that because our climate is changing and whitetail numbers are so high, that it is no longer advantageous for them to have their fawns in the spring. In fact, all of the supplemental feeding that is being done by hunters and ranchers maybe helping this.
The original concept for Northern Hemisphere hoof stock to all have their young in the spring, was to take advantage of the growing season of the food source. Now with food growing year round because of the milder climate, and alternate food sources available such as the supplemental feed, the need for all young to be born in the spring is not really necessary now.
I have no real proof, other than the things I have observed or that other hunters have told me about, but I believe whitetails will within the next 25 to 50 years or maybe sooner, will be like the fallow and axis deer, and breed year round. Now whether their antler shed pattern/rut cycle will also change I do not have a theory on that. JMO.
Last edited by crazyhorseconsulting; 10/15/06 12:18 PM.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#98986
10/15/06 12:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30
kyle_tx
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30 |
sasquatch,
I hunted this past Tues/Wed and saw the same thing. I hunt in East texas near crockett. Lots of deer movement. I had a nine pt come by after two does. While waiting on them to stop picking up acorns he completely tore up a spanish mulberry tree. After my hunt I also found a scrape that had just been worked. So I think their getting in the mode. I have also seen this early activity on my place for the past several years.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: kyle_tx]
#98987
10/15/06 01:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 67
fireman1594
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 67 |
I think you are seeing the "pre-rut". The length of days is triggering the testoserone levels in the deer to elevate. Their natural instincts are kicking in. CHC your theory is interesting and thought provoking. I think there are many things at work here. Natural selection would be hard to accomplish with a year round breeding season. I do not think a dominant buck could take it. I know you have seen one at the end of rut, man he looks drained. This may happen on one of those "pen" establishments where the "brood" buck does not have to work for his reward. I think that the fallow deer is the way it is because it is farther down the domesticated chart than the whitetail. Just my 1.5 cents.
Live extreme, stay safe.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: fireman1594]
#98988
10/15/06 01:24 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,317
Redneck_Hunter
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Quote:
I think you are seeing the "pre-rut". The length of days is triggering the testoserone levels in the deer to elevate. Their natural instincts are kicking in. CHC your theory is interesting and thought provoking. I think there are many things at work here. Natural selection would be hard to accomplish with a year round breeding season. I do not think a dominant buck could take it. I know you have seen one at the end of rut, man he looks drained. This may happen on one of those "pen" establishments where the "brood" buck does not have to work for his reward. I think that the fallow deer is the way it is because it is farther down the domesticated chart than the whitetail. Just my 1.5 cents.
I agree.
CHC, I've read where some biologists believe the reason all whitetails have their fawns in the spring is because of predator swamping.
Here's a quote from an article I just googled:
Quote:
Most whitetailed deer fawns are born in a relatively short time frame as part of a phenomenon called, "predator swamping." By birthing most of their fawns in a narrow time window, whitetailed deer ensure their overall survival by "swamping" the woods with more fawns than predators could possibly consume. Predators will eliminate some deer, of course, but the overwhelming majority will survive until they are able to fend for themselves.
When deer herds are out of balance, the rut and fawning periods often last longer than they do in well-balanced herds. If there aren't enough bucks to breed all the does during their first estrous cycle, the does will cycle again about a month later. Consequently, the fawns conceived during the second cycle will be born a month later than normal. With a longer fawning season, coyotes and other large predators can consume a greater percentage of the annual supply of newborn fawns.
"By educating hunters about the importance of herd health and balance, we hope to encourage them to harvest does and achieve better reproduction," Shaw said, "both in terms of breeding and fawning."
While coyotes do not kill a significant number of adult deer, they will consume fawns whenever possible. This is especially true during the first few weeks of a fawn's life when it is unable to travel with its mother.
So, if you see a fawn that appears to be alone, leave it alone. Nature is always an animal's best defense
Now, I'm not sure how much of this is accurate, but if your right, and deer start fawning year round, coyotes and other predators should have a year round supply of fawns to feast on.
There's a ton of other articles on the net regarding predator swamping, but this was the first one to show up when I googled "predator swamping".
Last edited by Redneck_Hunter; 10/15/06 01:28 PM.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Redneck_Hunter]
#98989
10/15/06 07:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 628
TJ Goodpasture
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 628 |
The rut is to happen the week after the 2nd full moon after the fall equinox. That means Nov. 6th this year and the days after will be peak rutting. We are definitely getting into pre-rut time of the year. The cooler temps have made it more likely that deer will move during the daylight hours.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: TJ Goodpasture]
#98990
10/16/06 12:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,424
Dave Davidson
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,424 |
My Montague County observations: I am seeing groups of yearlings without a doe. Obviously they have been kicked off from Mama. I am also seeing bucks hanging around groups of does and it is hard to run them off from the ladies. It is my PERSONAL belief that the bucks are ready and the does are nearing. I haven't seen a buck/doe pair yet.
CHC, I also am seeing spotted fawns in September; way too late. However, with 8 years of drought under our belt, I expect they will eat just about anything. Interesting idea; time will tell.
Without a sense of urgency, nothing ever happens.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley, Rancher Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: sasquatch]
#98991
10/16/06 12:22 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 484
operationporkchop
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 484 |
I know around Palestine there rut starts hard mid Oct. like right now. Then you go 2 hrs North say smith or wood county and the rut kicks off mid to late Nov. I don't understand how it could be so diff. being that these 2 places are not that far apart. 
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Dave Davidson]
#98992
10/16/06 12:23 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,750
bigjohn
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,750 |
Quote:
It is my PERSONAL belief that the bucks are ready and the does are nearing. I haven't seen a buck/doe pair yet.
I agree - have seen some movement in two different parts of the state in the last 4 days. First, I saw a nice (legal) 8 pointer just outside of Athens at 10:30 a.m. on Thursday about to run into the highway, but got spooked. This weekend, I was at Camp Grady Spruce (Possum Kingdon)with my daughter - we saw a buck nose a doe for several hundred yards.
Originally Posted By: bill oxner
You need professional help, not help from some truck driver on this forum.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: bigjohn]
#98993
10/16/06 01:02 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 213
Huntalot
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 213 |
I spoke with a biologist from S TX about this topic as it relates to South TX. I don't if the conditions parallel East Texas, but this is what he said about S TX.
He expects an early rut this year due to 2 conditions.
1. The drought has left the deer with less fawn recruitment than normal. The does are not tending/nursing fawns and therefore they would be ready to breed earlier than if conditions were somewhat different.
2. South Texas has received significant rain since Sept 1 (something like 7 inches at the Chap) and the pastures are in great shape. This translates into healthier does that helps trigger an earlier rut.
Not claiming this to be the gospel. Just sharing what I heard. Does this sound like what is happening in E TX?
Huntalot
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Huntalot]
#98994
10/16/06 01:26 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,449
Auctioneer1
Veteran Tracker
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The deer in East Tx always rut first it's been that way for years it has never changed and yes I hunt East Tx for many years. I have seen them rut in Sep and Oct many times it has nothing to do with feeding them. I run a lease now where the deer rut Nov first of Dec it's been that way for the last 5 years the rain does play a part one year we did not have any rain for months and in Sep the rain came and it threw the does into heat bucks running every where you looked. The cool fronts got your bucks looking for does so be ready to look for him to make the mistake that gets all them in trouble Good Luck!!!!
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Auctioneer1]
#98995
10/16/06 02:37 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 61
Eager Rookie
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 61 |
"You never stand so tall until you stoop to help a friend."
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#98996
10/16/06 01:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752
M16
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752 |
You have an interesting theory but there is one major flaw. Whitetail bucks cannot breed unless they are in hard antler. Therefore they will never breed yearound unless their antler/shed pattern would change. Their testosterone level is too low during the rest of the year.
Now most bucks in the state shed their velvet around August and September. Some possibly earlier and some a little later. Most deer in the state will have shed their antlers by the end of March or early April. With a gestation period of 180-200 days fawns can only be born roughly between March
September. It is possible to see a fawn with spots in December but it is more than likely 3 or 4 months old. We have fawns at the ranch now that a just losing their spots that were born in July.
Although the timing of the rut is determined by the length of day there are other factors that cause it to happen at different times in the state. One reason is that some areas had so few deer that deer were brought in from other states. In my area of Central Texas we recieved the Avery Island strain of deer. These deer tend to rut during the middle of October to the first week of November. When the deer were transplanted they basically kept the same rutting schedule. If I am not mistaken there is a herd around Wharton County that actually rut in late August and early September.
Normally during a wet fall and with good range conditions there will be an "intense" rut that will be of a shorter duration. An earlier post was correct in that does without fawns will be in better condition to breed.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: M16]
#98997
10/16/06 05:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
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Okay, explain spotted fawns being seen in Nov. and dec. or spotted fawns being seen in Feb. and March. What I posted is just my theory, and if everyone will read what I said fully, if what I am seeing is happening, it will be 25 to 50 years or more down the road before it fully changes, iof ever. Lora and I were seeing bucks with hardened antlers following does in March and April, just outside of Fort Worth. As more fawns are born either later or earlier each year, their hard wired physiology is going to stay the same, regardless of the season a buck or doe fawn will reach sexual maturity at their normal chronological time, not by what the calendar or seasons dictate. If a fawn is born 2 months early or 2 months late, they are not going to go into breeding condition at the same time as deer that were born during the "Normal, Late April to Mid-June, fawning period." They will be ready to breed either earlier or later, depending on when they were born. Again, this is just a theory, and all I have to go by is the physical evidense out there, and I think it is happening. None of us on here may ever see it completely change, but it is possible. JMO.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: M16]
#98998
10/16/06 05:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,317
Redneck_Hunter
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Quote:
Whitetail bucks cannot breed unless they are in hard antler.
Nevermind. I'm not even gonna say it.   
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#98999
10/16/06 05:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752
M16
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752 |
Quote:
Okay, explain spotted fawns being seen in Nov. and dec. or spotted fawns being seen in Feb. and March.
Spotted fawns in November or December are possible. This usually happens when a yearling doe reaches sexual maturity late in the year as in February, March, and possibly April. If bucks still have hardened antlers and their testosterone level has not fallen it is possible for them to breed. Therefore it would be possible for a fawn to be born as late as September. Since they keep their spots for four or more months it would be possible to see a spotted fawn as late as December.
I have never seen or heard of spotted fawns as early as February. March would be possible in some areas but they are they exception to the rule. We are talking about the extreme edge of the breeding season here and these occurances are certainly not normal. But the bottom line is unless the bucks are able to breed it doesn't matter when the does come into heat.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#99000
10/16/06 06:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,231
HighTechRedneck
redman
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redman
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,231 |
What I was told about late season fawns, or fawns that are still carrying spots late season is that it is due to an over population of Does and they are not getting bred the first couple of times they go into estrus. Just what I was told by a biologist, makes scence.
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: M16]
#99001
10/17/06 03:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474 |
That is what I am basing my theory on. As those late born/early born fawns reach sexual maturity, buck or doe, they will extend the breeding period on both sides of what would be normal. Example, most bucks start rubbing their velvet off in mid-August, early Sept., I have seen bucks with clean, hardened antlers in mid-July, that means that they are ready and able to breed. Any does that are of that same age class, can be bred. When would that fawn be born? Conversely, a late fawn, buck or doe, would work the same way. The DNA coding for sexual maturity is hard wired into their system, it does not speed up or decelerate due to the seasons. As I have been saying, this is just a theory that I have, I am not asking anyone to agree with it, and if I am right, probably none of us on here will be alive to if it actually happens or not. I just feel that an evolutionary process, due to the relationship between humans and whitetail deer, is under way and it is interesting to watch. 
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#99002
10/17/06 08:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,354
whby05
Veteran Tracker
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does anyone have any info for the panhandle or northern counties?
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: whby05]
#99003
10/18/06 07:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,698
Hoytman
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,698 |
ONE BIOLOGIST TOLD ME BUCKS CAN BREED 365 DAYS A YEAR ITS UP TO THE DOES. SOUNDS JUST LIKE HOME DONT IT!!!!!!
(Sig Pic to be no more than 125 pixels tall)
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Re: Early Rut?
[Re: Hoytman]
#99004
10/18/06 07:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484
Big Orn
great white gorilla
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great white gorilla
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 37,484 |
Quote:
ONE BIOLOGIST TOLD ME BUCKS CAN BREED 365 DAYS A YEAR ITS UP TO THE DOES. SOUNDS JUST LIKE HOME DONT IT!!!!!!
If they got the urge, I'd bet they could. That urge might not hit 'em but a few weeks...and it's a good thing...I know how that feels... 
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