that is the stupidest thing i have heard that the deer didnt suck before the ar, just after. How the F is that possible? because if you are shooting less bucks becasue of the AR how are the deer smaller? thats a personal problem that everyone is shooting so many does, because its the same people complaining who are shooting 3-5 DOES PER PERSON. Why would u shoot deer period if ur numbers are so dangerously low??? And if you dont have any deer over 13 inches that is a genetics problem, plain and simple. Because if all ur 4.5 years old and older are not 13.5 then u have a serious problem with genetics. i agree like everyone else all 3 counties I have hunted with AR's have made a great improvement not a so called decline like ur saying.

First off, careful with the stupid comment, I haven't questioned the intelligence of anyone for their opinion, and there's no need to drag it to that level and get the thread killed.

Read the whole thing, I haven't killed a deer off of it in the last 3 years.

I never said the deer were smaller, I said there's not as many as there was.... I have hunted over there for all or part of the last 11 years, and there are fewer deer in the last 3-4 years. Now if you find that hard to believe, get your butt up there and runa census yourself. I am just speaking from personal experience and game cams.

And even though some agree, not "everyone else" believes AR's have made great improvement.

I have never called someone from Lavaca, Austin, Colorado or other counties a liar, and I don't appreciate the insinuation here.

Now I have a direct question, is ccbaseball your team as a player, coach, or what? Just curious. I have a fairly extensive background in baseball too.

Hoytman,

You and I discussed this very topic last year....so I thought that I would give you an update. I am just up the road from you (in Hopkins county), so my observations may help you a little more than what people are seeing in other counties. I have owned the same property for just about 30 years, and have kept good records on my deer herd observations on the property. Way back when, the deer were numerous and seeing good quality (large healthy) bucks and does was the norm. In those days, we were all but alone in the area. The surrounding properties were large tracts that were primarily used for cattle production. There was very little hunting pressure and it was not uncommon to stay at the property for a week and never see or hear another person, vehicle, gunshot, etc.
Over the years, these surrounding properties got broken up into small (10 acres and up) tracts and the hunting pressure skyrocketed. I know of several landowners who would harvest 20-30 deer on a 20 acre tract per season (inc. family and friends). As this trend continued, the deer herd dwindled. The reduction in quality was staggering. As far as the bucks were concerned, the most noticeable difference was not just the rack size, but primarily the body size. For the past 10-15 years, the only bucks observed were small yearlings. I no longer saw the 2.5 to 5.5 year old bucks that not only had larger racks, but due to age had substantially larger bodies. Before the increased pressure, it was common to be able to shoot 150#-175# mature bucks, even if only for the meat. Over the past 10-15 years, I have seen very few deer that would even come close to 100#.

Getting a little long winded here, but to more directly answer your original question....In the 5 acres of food plots visible from my blind, before the antler restrictions I would see 40-75 deer in the plots during most morning or evening hunts. Of those deer, maybe 2-4 would be bucks, all of which were little dog sized deer with basket racks.
Since the antler restrictions, in the same food plots, I see about the same 40-75 deer in an average sitting. Of those deer, 10-15 are bucks. Of those bucks, 10 or so are nice 2.5 years old or older, with much larger bodies (and racks) than anything that I have seen in the past 10-15 years. If I like to hunt for larger racks, there are certainly many more available (on my property) since the antler restrictions have been implemented. If I like to hunt for meat, the body size (of the bucks) is substantially bigger than before the restrictions.
Just the facts....no opinions.

If we get the opportunity to get together this fall, I would be happy to show you plenty of pictures of the trend that I have seen...or better yet, you could swing by the place and see the numbers and quality yourself!

Sig,

As a supplement to my above post....My personal observations in Hopkins and Red River counties keep me from leaning too heavily on the genetics issue. One of my hunting buddies owns land in Red River county and has some really impressive bucks on film from the last couple of years. I don't mean impressive for Red River county, but impressive for anywhere. Years ago and in the last couple of years, I have seen and taken pictures of some pretty impressive bucks in Hopkins county as well.
I definitely agree that these type of bucks are not what is commonly observed in these two counties, but if the problem was genetically based, this quality of buck would probably not be present.

TexasPI's (or is it TexasPL's?) post makes it clear, once again, that ARs were developed because of the increasing number of small landholdings, and the abuse of same. I don't think ANY of the people complaining about ARs would be complaining if the TPWD implemented a permit system for each landholder based on acreage. We object to ARs because they are an illogical method of dealing with overhunting.

It's quite possible that a large one exists. I am not stupid. I just say that we don't see them, we see fewer every year, and that the vast majority of the deer I have seen in Red River in the past decade plus have been small basket racks or odd-balls like slick sixes and 2x's. Under the Antler Restrictions and the accompanying increase in doe and spike harvest, there's not much chance of that changing.

(YES, for those that follow me, AR's and increased doe/spike harvest are related. They came together, and the second buck tag allows taking of early season spikes when in years past under a one buck limit hunters would have held out for a bigger one. If you agree fine, if not there's no need to rehash it.)

i didnt mean for you to get all hurt, its just common sense. If your deer numbers are down and people keep saying all they shoot is does, thats why. If an individual is going to shoot 5 does and this is probably happening alot it is killin your deer numbers.
TEXASPI......i am confused you said that after the AR's you saw alot fewer bucks and deer then u said u see the same amount of deer and alot more bucks in your food plot. SO....... are you seeing less deer/smaller bucks or more deer/bigger bucks after the AR's. I am seeing alot more deer and bigger bucks in my county because of AR's.
SIG.....I just got done playing D1 baseball and I played juco ball before that. I have played my whole life.

Wish we all could find a common ground on this but that aint never gonna happen. My one and only point of this thread was we are seeing fewer and fewer deer every year because of the liberal bag limit. If TPW would lower the bag limit we all could get what we want in hopkins co. I could see more deer and the horn hunters could see bigger bucks. I wish i could get my neighbors to stop taking too many deer but that aint gonna happen either.

ccbaseball- what I said in my post was that when comparing (on my property) the deer herd before and since AR's, I am seeing roughly the same number of deer per hunt, but since the AR's the number of bucks has increased, as well as the average body and rack size.

Hoytman - I agree that everybody getting on the same page is not likely to happen. I think that those on both sides of the issue would enjoy the same end result better - more numbers and larger (body and rack) deer. I just don't think people will ever agree on the right way to get there.
While I have seen really positive results from the antler restrictions in regards to more and larger bucks......I definitely agree with you that the bag limit in Hopkins county is way too liberal. I am surrounded by small tracts with way too many hunters, all of which will shoot every legal buck that is seen. When their tags are filled, their friends and relatives take over the stands until theirs are filled.

The two counties I hunt, I know that AR's have made a vast improvement over the years.

It's really a little silly to argue this point, as those who believe it hurts their hunting area aren't going to be convinced otherwise, and the same with those who see how it has improved their property won't be swayed either.

I'm just thankful that TPWD stepped in and finally did something that has improved the hunting in MY area, so hope everything works out for everyone else this year!

what Postoak said.

Since we cannot stop land fragmentation and human encroachment on the native habitat, we will never be able to solve this issue for free range deer until we go to a tag system based on acreage. I don't think this will happen and unfortunately there is only solution. But it is expensive and management intensive.

I agree oddly, that we can't stop the fragmentation... encroachment, well deer have always been "edge" livers, so that's not that big of a deal to me.

Biggest place I disagree with all the AR's and supporters, is that there ever was a problem to start with!