If everyone would, please read this entire post before jumping to a conclusion. That is all I ask.

After some of the recent topics that have been on here, and some that still are flaring up, I got to noticing something.It is something that seems to be an undercurrent all across the sport of hunting, and I wanted to get other peoples, REAL, thoughts on this, not just party line crap, but how people really feel.

I am not picking on any one group, these are just some things that I have observed. Maybe it is a case of me misinterpreting things, which would be nothing new, but I can't help but feel that what I am seeing is real.

Does it seem to anyone else that hunters in Texas, are really quick to voice their support of hunting and fellow hunters, yet when it comes down to it, they are really only concerned about THEIR ability to continue to hunt. That when people say that they have been forced out of hunting for whatever reason, these other supportive hunters say, "Gosh, I hate to hear that", while jumping up and down on the inside saying, "Leaves more for me".

While most people are going to say I am wrong, and I may be, I really believe that there are hunters or groups of hunters in Texas, that are only worried about themselves, and feel in circumstances that their manner or form of hunting will survive, long after other groups or methods are outlawed.

From my observations over the years, if we continue to lose numbers of hunters, for whatever reason, and license sells begin a steadily increasing decline, along with a continueing decline in the recruitment of new hunters, it will be easier, even here in Texas, for hunting to be viewed in a whole different light.

With all of the new Texans we have now, and all of the ones we are going to keep getting, the public opinions on such things as hunting, and its place in 21st. century Texas, is going to change, possibly radically.

Am I the only person that sees this, or are others out there watching the in-fighting that is going on in the hunting community, and noticing that it seems to be getting easier for people to accept the fact that fellow hunters are being forced out of the sport, and all they can do is shake their head and say, "Well at least it ain't me."

This is just my opion, so take your best shots. CHC

I think it depends on the situation. Walk into any grocery store, cafe, gas station, etc, wearing camo during hunting season and every hunter in there is more than willing to sit and talk to you. I've seen it many times. I was pulled off on the side of the road fixin a flat one weekend. Dressed in camo. cars goin by constantly. 3 trucks stopped. All hunters offerin to help. Most of the time you can meet another fellow hunter anywhere and in 10 minutes time you are chatting like old friends.

Start talking about stuff like antler restrictions, "trophy bucks", etc, and all the support goes down the crapper if the other person doesn't take the same stand as you do.

What happened to the days of hunting like when I was a kid. If someone in camp shot a deer no matter what size it was, everybody was excited. No one said anything about how they wouldn't have shot it, or that wasn't a trophy deer. The guys from the camp across the road would come over to congratulate you and you'd do the same for them. In the last 10 years I have heard in too many camps, "Man why did you shoot thaqt little deer" or "I would have let him walk".

Where did everyone loose sight of the whole purpose behind going hunting. It's bad enough that non hunters cannot understand it, and now it seems that even hunters do not understand it. HUNTING IS ALL ABOUT GOING OUT AND SPENDING QUALITY TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS MAKING MEMORIES TO LAST A LIFETIME.

All this bickering and crap has got to stop. Now don't get me wrong. If I am fortunate enough to shoot a bigger buck than Saginaw Hunter does this year you can damn well gurantee I am gonna point that fact out to him every chance I get, and I inagine he will do the exact same thing if the situation is reversed. But when all the joking is finished either one of us will be happy that the other was fortunate enough to get a deer.

And that my fellow hunters is what this whole business of hunting is supposed to be about IMO. Me, chc, Saginaw, dgilbert, OFBHWG, and a lot of others can cut up, make fun and pick on each other all day long. But when all is said and done, we are just happy to be spending time with each other out in the woods doing something that we all love and cherish.

If every hunter could join up and do just like we do, imagine how strong we would be as a whole group.

It's not just the hunting community that acts that way and I would say if you compared the hunting and fishing community to the entire population you would find hunters and fisherman stick together pretty good. Go to a walmart or other large chain store, or a shopping mall and watch how ignorant most of the people in this world are. As hunters and fisherman we do need to stick together and make sure our voices are heard because there are those out there that would love nothing more than the banning of all hunting everywhere. I also hear alot about how the price of hunting is getting higher and higher every year. It is is some places. Hunting is a commodity that fortunately and unfortunately in Texas exists mostly on private land and the land owner will try and maximize his profit, and he should, anybody would do that. There are still plenty of places across Texas to get an affordable lease, or hunt public land. However growing large mature trophy whitetails or any game for that matter does have expense associated with it. You have to pay for the quality work that someone has put in to make those animals what they are. I think the bottom line is that stupid people of all kinds fill this world, like does in a hill country wheat field. The one good thing that I have found is you meet very few bad people who are truely hunters and fisherman, these are both hobbies that take tremendous patience and dedication, two traits most morons don't have. MY TWO CENTS

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From my observations over the years, if we continue to lose numbers of hunters, for whatever reason, and license sells begin a steadily increasing decline, along with a continueing decline in the recruitment of new hunters, it will be easier, even here in Texas, for hunting to be viewed in a whole different light.

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To this point, I don't think there's been a decline in the number or hunters or hunting licenses sold. There were over a million hunting licenses sold last year which is almost double the number sold 10 years ago. I think if we did see a decline in the number of hunters, things might be a little different. But, as long as the number of hunters continues to increase every year, and the amount of huntable land decreases every year, there will continue to be a growing competition among hunters for opportunities.

I hunt on private land bordered by the Davy Crockett National Forest. During the first two weekends of the season, it sounds like a war is going off all around us. It's amazing to me to drive down those forest roads and see all the deer camps up & down the road. Every year, there's more & more hunters hunting the public lands because there's less & less private lands available to hunt. I will often ride up to the local country store after a morning hunt, and run into 10 or 20 or more hunters who are camped out in that forest and coming in after coffee or supplies, and most are just hanging out there talking with fellow hunters. Most are really easy going and friendly, and some are there taking pictures of the deer they killled that morning. Usually it's a good time for everyone until the GW shows up, and some scatter like flies. But, that's another issue. I find it funny that in a 1 buck county, if you walk up to a hunter there taking pictures of his deer, and you ask him where he killed it. Most of the time, they won't tell you. Keep in mind, this is a 1 buck county. What are they planning to do? Are they planning to go after another? Who knows? At any rate, the guys I've talked to in the past years have been from all over the place. Most live in East Texas, but I've met some folks from Dallas and Houston. There's hunters who've lost there deer leases and can't find another one, and there's others who just can't afford to get on a lease. Whatever the reason, opportunities to hunt are becoming more scarce, and this will lead to more & more competition.

What you've noticed I've seen for quite some time now, the arguing amongst hunters has got to stop.

I've always like the quote.
" As hunters sometimes we can be our own worst enemy's"

Alan Warren made another statement i particularly liked.

"My opinion only here; but when too many folks (who all love the same thing) FIGHT, FIGHT and ARGUE about the "moral" issue of hunting... the PETA folks are laughing their butts off and we're self destructing and handing them what they want on a silver platter."

As a new person to hunting, only been hunting for about 4 years, I see this going down the same path as the baseball card business. When they first came out everyone traded cards based off of their love for a player or team. Then greed came in and spoiled the whole business. Everyone started collecting based off of profit. I see hunting going the same way. People are charging more for private land and there is less public land to hunt on. Now don't get me wrong, I feel like there needs to be some private land, but I just wish there was more public land, that new hunters that can't afford some private prices, can hunt on. Maybe I am wrong and missing the point but I just feel like hunting has just become a big business and gone are the days of hunting with friends and family.

"Do we, hunters as a whole group, really support each other?"

Not nearly enough. We're a divided nation, along any line you care to name, and getting moreso every day, so it doesn't surprise me that hunters are splintered, too.

My hat off to you Crazyhouseconsuling.

As a hold, the American people have lost the ability to stick together. Personal interest is the only matter of concern (if it benefits me I am for it).

I was in Viet Nam and saw combat there; I fully understand the concept of sticking together.

We are not unified; therefore, we are losing our rights. I do not want my grandkids to lose there right to hunt and fish.

Joe

Hunting has now become big business and the traditions are being left behind, at least here in Texas they are. Unless I get selected in the TPWD drawing, I won't even bother buying a hunting license. I'll save my money for my hunting trip out of state. It saddens me that it has come to this now.

Though I think debating the issues that affect
hunters and hunting is important and that this
is the perfect place to do that, I do understand
where CHC is coming from on this and get the point.

Take me for instance.
Heck take 2 they're small (ba dop boom).
I've mentioned my feeling that I am in a
totally different class, league or station
of hunter than the great majority of people
that post here. No need to go into all the
specifics again, my feeling has often been
that there are people, alot of people, who
it wouldn't bother one bit if those like me
were phased out of hunting. Whether by the
rising cost or lack of a place to go, we might
be seen as nothing more than an acceptable loss
since we don't own ranches or pay big dollars
to lease. We don't contribute to B&C or P&Y.
Some see us as contributing nothing to the
"SPORT" so we are expendable. What would be
the loss if we, either by attrition or just
plain discouragement, didn't hunt anymore?

To be honest, I've enjoyed my hunting very much
while in the woods or field. I appreciate the
land, however little, that has been provided for
those of us that can't justify spending thousands
of dollars a year on our adventures. But I do
believe there are cliques or even a class system
at work that could be the demise of certain other
hunters/hunting. And when a government agency is
enlisted to police these differences, the death toll
may as well begin.

Just my rant, don't mean nothing.
PK

The issues you have identified are not just related to just Texas, they exist with hunters everywhere. Put hunters face to face and they will get along and respect each other, however, give them an internet chat room and things tend to get out of hand.

A couple of times in your post, which is a good post, you bring up the "Competition" aspect.

Maybe mine is just a phylisophical difference on that concept, but to me, competition can be a good thing, if all competitors are on an equal footing.

In the case of hunting, people that are being forced out now, for whatever reason, are going to stop buying hunting license. If they can't afford it now, with prices for everything across the board concerning hunting increasing, what are the odds that in 2, 3 or even 5 years down the line, that they will be able or even willing to get back involved.

Let's throw this little angle into the equation, how many of us on here that are still trying to lease a place, have either reached or are fastly approaching the upper limit of what THEY CAN AFFORD to pay for a place to hunt. Notice that I didn't say WILLING, simply because, I am willing to pay to go to Africa and hunt Cape Buffalo, I CAN NOT AFFORT IT!

Personnally, I feel that the types of "COMPETITION" that are going on in the sport of hunting at this time, are doing a lot more harm than a lot of foks want to admit to. JMO.

I have tried to find a lease that i can afford, the cheapest one thus far has been 1500.00 just for deer and hogs. It was approx 600 acres and it was for 5 to 6 guns. I have talked to numerous people, people like me, blue collar, who have lost their leases due to sub-divisions and the prices going up to where they just can't justify spending that kind of money when they have a mortgage and kids. As long as there are people who will pay top dollar for the right to hunt that's where it's going to stay.

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To this point, I don't think there's been a decline in the number or hunters or hunting licenses sold.

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As it turns out, I was wrong. I checked the TP&W website, and there has been a decline in hunting licenses sold since 2003. There were just over 31,000 fewer hunting licenses sold in 2005 than 2003. What's even more interesting than that is the number of non resident licenses has increased by almost 9000 since 2003. So, as we're watching a decrease in resident license sales, we're seeing an increase in non resident license sales.

Now, as for competition. Your right, we would have nothing without competition. Competition can be a good thing when there is a balance or when it favors you as a consumer or when it favors you as a producer. In the case of whitetail deer hunting in Texas, competition favors the producer or landowner more so than the consumer or hunter. Will that change? It could. I read somewhere that almost 1/3 of the huntable land in South Texas is high fenced. I don't know that to be true because I never go to South Texas, but at any rate, if it is true, we may start to see more competition amongst landowners and whitetail deer ranchers which may lead to lower rates. Only time will tell.

I don't think it will lead to lower prices in the future. JMO, but it will probably help the landowner justify adding another 500.00 to 1000.00 dollars to his price because of all the extras attached to hi-fencing such as breed stock and/or protein feeding.

The thing that we all need to remember is that we all enjoy the outdoors. How we choose to enjoy it is where we have our differences. Part of these differences have to do with where we are in our development stage in regard to being a sportsman, outdoorsmen, hunter, or whatever you want to call us.
Eventually, I will not kill a deer any more. It will be a sad day and I can already feel the remorse for having passed to a different level. I have killed plenty of deer in my life and hope to kill a few more, but in a few more years, the urge to kill a deer will be gone. That does not make me less of a hunter or more of a hunter or more of a man or less of a man. It just means I have changed in regard to what I have to take as a trophy, just as now we all disagree on what constitues a trophy.
Being able to see deer on a frosty morning and watching an old buck thrash a mesquite bush while keeping a wary eye out for an intruder may soon be the trophy that I take back to the hunting cabin. I may or may not take a gun, so I have a REASON to be there. Maybe I carry a camera to capture the moment that I want to remember the rest of my life. Maybe my trophy is feeding deer throughout a long dry summer so that there will be a deer to hunt for a grandson or granddaughter that I may or may not have in the future. Maybe my trophy is catching a glimpse of myself in a youngster that I choose to take hunting. There are lots of maybes out there.
All of our trophies are as different now as they will be then. The things that we need to be able to harvest those trophies is the outdoors. If we have that, we will always have reason to go hunting, fishing, or just walking down a country road to see what we might have missed in times gone by.
Just my opinion. You can take it or leave it.

Dern it BenBob, how am I supposed to argue with that!

PK

The most interesting, and telling fact or figure that you had in your post, is the increase of Non-Resident hunting licenses. Non-residents are recognizing more and more, that on a $300.00 license, that they do not have to draw for, and there is no limit on the # of non-resident license that can be sold, they can come down here, and for what a elk or moose or other Big Game hunt would cost them, they can shoot a whole truck load of animals, and if they are hunting on a place with an MLD permit, they have from October till the end of February, not just one or two weeks in October, in which to schedule their hunt.

Colorado and other staes lobbied their legislators, and those states put a cap on the # of Non-Resident tags can be issued on any species for any hunt. Does anybody besides me see that having resident hunters replaced by non-residents, is not necessarily a good thing for the sport here in Texas.

Your absolutely right, and while the numbers are still small, they are growing. In 2003, non resident license sales were 5.9% of all hunting licenses sold. In 2004, it was 6.4%. In 2005, it was 6.9%. So, if this trend continues, before long 10% of the deer hunters in this state will be from out of state.

10% may not seem so important right now, but the big if, is IF the increase in Non-Resident licenses continues on the curve it was on from 2003 to 2005.

To be plain honest, mine and Lora's hunting service adds to those numbers, because Texans, for the most part do not want to hunt Javelina, Non-Residents do. But nearly every Non-resident I have guided, has asked me to contact them if I ever get the deer hunting on that ranch.

With the Mountain states putting caps on the number of Non-Resident licenses available, and reducing the total #'s of license being issued on some species, more and more Non-Residents are looking at Texas.

Texas is setting with the Red Carpet rolled out and her arms wide open for those Non-Resident sportsmen and women.

None of this really has anything to do with the topic, other than the way in which it effects hunters that live in Texas and their future ability to be able to enjoy the sport. JMO.

With all of the new Texans we have now????????????????????
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO THIS THREAD BUT THEY ARE NOT TEXANS!!!
THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE THEY ARE WELCOME BUT THEY ARE NOT TEXANS.

SECOND ARE YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT ARE HUNTING LISC SALES DECLINING???????????? IM UNDER THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY ARE INCREASING. I MAY BE WRONG.

3RD WHAT SUPPORT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?? EXPLAIN.

I THINK THAT THE HUNTING GROUP AS A WHOLE IS ONE OF THE MOST SUPPORTIVE AROUND PROBABLY ONLY SECOND TO GUN OWNERS.
TELL ME MORE OF WHAT EXACTLY YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

JMO, good post. Copperhead, yes as a land owner, prices will probably and moreover increase as time passes. Red neck, high fences are not going to make ranchers more competitive . Why do you think they are high fencing? I have close friends that have high fenced their ranches only for the fact of getting more money for hunting. And we ain't talking leases either. We're talking outfitted and guide hunts. In the Coleman area where my place is, I don't know a handful of people that season lease! All guided hunts. JMO some of the licenses are used for package hunting and a lot of the non-resident hunters wind up on my place and a lot of other ranches in the area. My outfitter has a long and I mean a long list of clients from all over the united states that come to Texas and the Coleman area to hunt all sorts of game. How can I suppot you guys in the hunting realm? As a land owner how can I support you? I'll throw this out for conversation. How much do you think I lease 400 acres for? (season) Deer, turkey, quail,hogs, and fishing. Incidently, this is the only part of my place that we lease. I'll give you a hint. A corp. leased it for employees.

Randall, Not directed at you, just the way I feel.

Spanky

Hunting license sales are actually declining in Texas, to Texans, Non-Residents are beginning to look at Texas as the Go TO place for hunting, and the outfitters/guides/landowners, including me and Lora are seeing that.

We shouldn't be looking at from the stand point of, Well I feel bad that you don't have a place to hunt, But I Do.

We shouldn't be looking at from the stand point that I think the regulations are a great thing, while 5 or 6 or more counties away, land owners and their families can't shoot a deer on their own property.

I think it is wrong when any faction, modern firearm, muzzle-loader, archery, traditional archery, people that hunt with dogs, think tthat there way of hunting is the only way.

And not to be real arguementative on this, but gun owners are not really that supportive of each other. There are many gun owners out there that would like to see assault/military firearms and 50 cal. BMG's outlawed, hoping it will buy them some time from the anti's. Hunters are the same way.

Not trying to start an arguement, just trying to see if other people have noticed that we are supportive as hell on the surface, till it comes to issues such as antler restrictions or methods of hunting.

From what I am seeing from the responses, other people are seeing the erosion that is taking place. Other people are seeing that more and more people are being forced out of hunting every year. Fewer and fewer new hunters are getting involved, especially in Texas because they either have no place to go, or if they have a place to go, they can't kill anything.

I am looking to see how many people are paying attention to what is happening, and how many are trying to ignore it, and pretend that things will never change.

If a person stops and looks at just the issues that have been beat to death on this forum over the past 12 months, it is clear that we say we support each other, but the evidence, especially when dealing with issues like the antler restrictions and hunting high fenced property, proves otherwise.

We only support each other on the points we agree on, and I don't think that I am the only one that looks at it that way.

Lastly, no matter what anyone thinks, our ancestors were the wetbacks. Texas and Texans have accepted immigrants since day one. While all the people moving into the state may not feel the way we do about being a Texan, they are now Texans and their future voting strength is going to determine our future and there is no changing that.