You said it yourself; ear wide is the only management indicator of this AR. That’s an incompetent, lazy, and lame concept. Threads on here show 3/4 of the people are able to guess age within a year or two (give or take). Did you guess my rack here was 15 inches? Surprised even me when I put a tape on it. And, he was 30 yards away. How many 4-10 year olds get to walk by this rule? How many get thrown away, and another deer gets harvest in it place?
Again, my opinion is ARs are good with exceptions.

Trying to guess spread off a skull with minimal other context is much more difficult than trying to guess of a full animal with ears out.

I don’t think anyone agrees that spread is the perfect end all be all metric but it absolutely works to move animals into an older age class. Asking for an age as the AR metric will be especially difficult as an adult deer may be 250lbs in north texas to 100lbs in the hill country to 250lbs again in south texas. Those animals age characteristics will vary widely but a simple question of “is it wider than the ears” is a fits all concept that most agree can be easily followed. For those of us that wish for a more precise or more personal metric on our properties, we have that option through MLD

If AR’s didn’t exist, what are the odds that deer would have grown to maturity, let alone a record size for the county? Better than 50%?

How about mule deer ARs? Forked horn or better. Yet, a fork/spike is legal. That’s lame. That’s a young deer. Not an antler deformation either. He’ll become a 3 X 2, or a 5 X 4, ect. How many fork/spikes are over 3? Probably less than 20 in all of North America. Just note we are in agreement; exceptions would make it even better

I don’t know but you sure like to post that photo around lol

It gives a good visual of this AR subject. Get used to it, I’ll be bragging on him until next season when I get his big 10 buddy. No doubt he’s wide enough.

I don’t think the visual is so good but it’s good for you ego I guess.

Congrats, but bringing it up anywhere you can is telling lol.

Thank you Sir. Your hospitality is telling as well. Bless your heart.

Is that like the Jeff Foxworthy version???

Kind of a pointless thread. TP&W biologists know the improvement of the deer maturity in AR counties and it’s not going away.

Guy kills a buck that is a product of antler restrictions then complains on a forum about antler restrictions


Go figure….

I like AR. I remember the days of “ It’s a buck. Shoot!”.

The only issue I see is that bucks that will never get a wide enough spread will continue to age and will still be spreading their genes.

Nothing is perfect is the way I see it. It’s the best way to get bucks to maturity. It’s impossible for most hunters to age a buck on the hoof so at least AR’s provide some level of assistance with it.

I’ve hunted under AR restrictions all of my life. Every deer I’ve harvested. I never seen days like that in my lifetime. As I’ve indicated, ARs can be greatly improved. Just having a conversation here.

Check out these guys with over 30,000 post being so judgmental. One would think; with that many posts, they should be able to read.

No one "harvests" a deer. You harvest crops & kill animals.

Plus I was mistaken that civil discourse could in fact occur on the internet. Please be happy with this sad version of AR , when a better way to do it exists.

To the few, thanks for the civil discourse.

DJ, 45, or anyone else that thinks they have the answer please spell it out for us. Lots of people have tried to figure out the best way and this is what they came up with. It’s not perfect but it appears to be the best way.
If your idea is to use an age cutoff then that appears to me to be ridiculous. The problem is not with the difficulty of aging on the hoof(although very difficult) but it’s the lack of enforceability. Game Warden pulls you over and says, hey that deer looks underage. The hunter just says, I thought it was old enough. With ARs the GW only needs a tape measure. Surely y’all can understand that……
Another layer to it is that the hunters that the ARs is written for do not WANT to age properly cause they just want to kill anything with horns. The counties that are known to have management minded hunters dont have ARs cause those guys wouldn’t dream of killing a real young deer.
So, let’s hear the new rules that will keep hunters from killing yearling bucks.

Mandatory number of points, either on one side or in total. 4 points on one side or 8 total, that way it's not subjective. Plenty of other states do this and it seems to work from PA to the west coast.

When the rule change went into effect I talked to a number of wardens who didn't like it because of how hard it is for us to judge width of a rack looking through shaking binoculars.

But if this idea seems too utilitarian or too simple to implement by all means ignore what I've said and continue on your merry way.



Actually there aren't any. The state still provides a spike buck as a legal buck and typically, although not 100% of the time, those are yearling bucks. Spikes would have to outlawed to protect yearlings. Also, a button buck is still tagged as antlerless correct? We'll have to outlaw killing does to protect the yearling button bucks. So, you get to kill one buck 13" or greater and nothing else.

EDIT: Not everyone is on a super sweet lease with massive 8 to 14 point bucks lollygagging around the place. Some of us hunt in marginal or poor deer habitat and may only see a few bucks in the season with gun in hand. I have killed a lot of deer in my life and I don't mind the AR as it does seem to be improving the herd. My gripe is the chosen methodology. AR isn't flawed, but I think the 13" system is. My OPINION and no one has to like or agree with it. But don't put people down like an internet bully if you disagree. Agree to disagree can be done nicely too.

The issue with the points method you described is it opens up the top quality of the age class earlier in their lives than under the spread scenario.

The deer where I hunt are very typical of herds across the state, the average 5.5+ year old buck is going to be between 110”-130”. Based on the points criteria you listed, 14 out of the 28 bucks we’ve observed that are either 1.5 or 2.5 would be legal deer. Under the current spread/Unbranched criteria there are only 6 legal deer. Four of those are spikes and the other two are the two best deer in the 2.5YO class whose spread is probably right at 13” and too close to call for an ethical hunter in an AR county.

In TPWD eyes, the latter scenario is absolutely more favorable given their objective of increasing deer age across the state. Every single criteria system will have a flaw, but as it stands I have yet to see or hear a different criteria implemented that allows more young animals to advance to the next age class and is still easily followed by the average hunter.

Thank you Double AC! I still think the average hunter that spends minimal time in the field finds the 13" rule not so easy to follow, or rather to judge in the field. A well reasoned & civil response Sir.

Not accurate. Spikes/forks are not legal unless 20" outside spread. In the panhandle, mule deer ARs have absolutely made a difference, and almost immediately at that.

4pts will still be subjective, 45. I’ll post a pic I have of a 2.5 yr old 7pt. He’s under 13”, so safe under the current rule. His only browtine, which gives him a 4th point, is between 3/4” and 1”. If it’s under 1”, he’s not legal. So which is harder to judge, the length of that one point with nothing to really compare it against, or whether his spread is wider than his ears?

Neither is a perfect method, and the post above about the top of the age class gives a good example.


Edit to add the photo:

Thanks QuitShootin!

45 nut, waiting to kill bucks till they have a 13” spread does not make you a trophy hunter. It does add a 3 1/2 year old age class to the buck population. 3 1/2 year old bucks are not harvested by trophy hunters. Increasing the overall buck population by 25-30 percent does move some bucks closer to maturity. It also significantly alters the buck doe ratio in herds where buck populations were traditionally hammered and the ratio is way out of kilter. It is not perfect but rather a middle ground approach.

There are no spread restrictions where I hunt mule deer. I don’t hunt mule deer in this State. My error for not specifying.

As for as my opinion on the 13” AR in Texas…

Implementation of exceptions as follows:

(1) All 10 points or greater legal
(2) All 6 points or less must comply the spread rule.
(3) All others (meaning 7-9 points) must have two tines of ‘X’ inches or greater

That’s my final opinion of this subject. I won’t be posting anymore trophy photos or expressing my opinion.

Happy Hunting!

The best fix for AR’s is responsible stewards of the land. Which isn’t gonna happen big picture.