ive gotta agree with amos here, it is the same as any other law. which are all infringements on our freedom.......

Yeah.. except for the immigration laws right... maybe the 40 hour work week... or child labor laws... laws against monopolies... that protect consumers from fraud...



I mean... I'm as libertarian as the next guy... but to say all laws are an infringement... heh

This is a law telling me that I can only shoot what they call a true trophy or older deer. Under the guise they say it is to improve the herd, allowing young bucks to grow older. If you can answer me this I'll shut up and move on. How is that going to happen if you are allowed to kill a spike which could just be one year old???? Betch you cant give me a logical answer to that. Can you? For those like myself who have hunted a two buck county most of my life the AR have just taken away your chance at a larger buck. In essance you could kill a nice buck and than hunt the rest of the year for a nicer one if you wanted or allow your son/daughter/wife, etc... (if applicable on your lease). Now after making a harvest of the requirements inflicted by the TPWD they will have to settle for a spike to get that second tag, most likely a young spike that has not fully attained his potential. There goes your herd.

No I think the spike thing is stupid... They should remove the spike tag entirely...

as an east texan...(not a yankee east texan).. I must say that I can fit 3 quartered does in a 55g trashbag (and that is the bag's limit... actually need to dbl bag) and the rest of those are just mere suggestions.

^^ lol

I hope the ARs never go away in DeWitt County; the rules are saving our buck population from being decimated on an annual basis. As a director of the largest Wildlife Management Association in the County, I can tell you that our membership is behind them. I also have been running our buck contest in the county and any factor used to "measure" a deer; age, antlers, or weight has improved each year. We are actually at the point that a majority of the deer taken are 5 and 6 1/2 year olds that are in the 155 to 165 range both in field dressed weight and BC scoring.

Hunting pressure here is huge, land fragmentation is out of control, everywhere you look there is a deer stand, with a new fence going up because another place has been split in multiple properties. I see ARs as simply a way to control the kill. Unchecked, hunting is over here unless we were to go to a buck permit system and I've heard that discussed.

Because of my involvement with the WMA, I hear a few complaints as some people think I have influence in the matter (I don't, statistics control it). I think there are two groups of individuals that seem unhappy with the rules in my county; certain lease hunters and landowners with very small properties. If I hear a complaint from a lease hunter, that individual will be a hunter on a property that has a hunter density of more than one hunter per 100 acres. If I hear it from a landowner, it will be from someone with less than 50 to 75 acres with more than one person hunting it.

I manage the data from four TPWD spot light census lines; compile all the Incidental Observation Records and the Harvest Data Logs on over 225 properties representing 115K acres of very fragmented land. This is my fifth year of handling the records submitted by landowners and hunters and what I see and report to the State indicates that the ARs are positively impacting the health and age structure of the buck population.

Sorry guys, ARs aren't about the man telling you what to do. It's about helping a buck deer survive in counties that are being stressed by hunter density or land fragmentation.

I've also been studying land fragmentation, documenting the effect of our population on tracts of land. I randomly selected a property that represented one owner and 1000 acres in 1970, just down the road from me. In 2000, that tract held 31 properties/owners and I will really hate going to the tax office to research what has happened in the year 2010. In that I drive by it every day, I know it has doubled. Land fragmentation is more than the land "busting" up. It's the total effect represented by habitat loss due to housing, barns, pools, driveways, fencelines, etc. It mounts up and is huge.

I hear the "I want my kid to kill a deer" argument but my only response is if we don't do something now to meter hunting pressure with the available deer population, your kid's kid will not hunt. This is the face of whitetail habitat management in most AR counties. Smaller properties and more hunters.

10 Pointer said..."This is a law telling me that I can only shoot what they call a true trophy or older deer. Under the guise they say it is to improve the herd, allowing young bucks to grow older. If you can answer me this I'll shut up and move on. How is that going to happen if you are allowed to kill a spike which could just be one year old???? Betch you cant give me a logical answer to that. Can you? For those like myself who have hunted a two buck county most of my life the AR have just taken away your chance at a larger buck. In essance you could kill a nice buck and than hunt the rest of the year for a nicer one if you wanted or allow your son/daughter/wife, etc... (if applicable on your lease). Now after making a harvest of the requirements inflicted by the TPWD they will have to settle for a spike to get that second tag, most likely a young spike that has not fully attained his potential. There goes your herd."
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You were allowed to shoot spikes before...yet no one is REQUIRED to shoot spikes.

Under the old rules, you might shoot a 4-point that is the same age as a spike; the spike walks. Is that a "good" plan for your herd?

Sounds like your son/daughter/wife are using your license? Otherwise why are they limited to a spike?

How dare your lease give you "rules" to hunt by...you know best what needs to be done....

P&W has not always made the best decisions, but TX is a big state, and I do think they try for what's best. No secret motives or a plot to screw deer hunters.

Ranch Dog's post is a good one about the how's and why's of AR needs and benefits.

ARs are simply about limiting the harvest with the deer being the control, not the hunter. If you used the "Hunter" as a control, one buck per hunter and no further control in place, an endless supply of hunters can show up. It has been tried and failed miserably. You can never forecast the number of hunters that will show up in a given area. It is impossible. You could have one box stand on 10 acres and a continuous stream of hunters harvesting bucks from that stand without exceeding the limit. This of course is not a theoretical example; it's my neighbors place, thirteen bucks killed from one stand by thirteen different hunters. All from 10 acres and this isn't the worse example.

With the "Buck" as the control, once the age classes specified are gone, the harvest is over. Using antlers to define age class is not best solution but it is the only reasonable solution when hunters are making the decision in the field at a moment’s notice. These two groups of bucks, 1-3 points and bucks with greater than 13" spreads represent measurable, hence known numbers of deer in any area. They represent an acceptable harvest for the species to continue.

Two things happen as the age structure of the bucks increase. The number of spikes decreases and bucks on the large end get harder to kill because they now are older hence wiser. Many, many of our good bucks in the contest are not killed at feeders. Hunters actually need to hunt. I've seen it myself on my place. My valued stands, in my mind, are tripods on travel corridors with no feed in site. I can see where this would raise havoc on a lease where you actually are leasing a place to put a feeder; you know what I mean, everyone’s little fiefdom and damned if you hunt anywhere else.

Finally, when you cast your dislike or doubt about the rules in place do you really know anything about the deer and land you hunt? What is the carrying capacity of the land based on the natural browse and what effect are livestock stocking rates having on that capacity? What is the specific buck to doe ratio and what are the fawn survival rates? You cannot determine a deer harvest and measure its success for the future without knowing the answers to these questions. These questions are actually answered and monitored in every part of the State. If you think that no one is worried about where you specifically hunt you are wrong simply because you are not involved.

I've often read these posts but I'm too busy to join in and I see folks wanting the "data" behind this. There is plenty of data supporting ARs and the performance they are achieving. It is being documented by the Wildlife Management Associations (Type I), Type II, and Type III properties in your counties. Why are these properties being used, because they have specific reporting requirements that the landowner and hunter are involved with. Citizens are providing the data directly from the field that supports the whitetail management decisions the State is making. This leaves the personal likes and dislike out, the data represents what is actually happening to the deer herd.

If you are not, you need to get involved with the census counts and reporting. You do that by enrolling your property in a Wildlife Management Association, I can tell you they need your help and want the data. To run our four census lines we need 84 member days, we need help to get it done. We need all the properties reporting the facts that make a management decision and the only way to participate is being a Type I, II, or III property. Here is a reference for the WMAs of Texas. Notice how the map reflects the areas of the ARs. These are the properties providing the data that the State bases its management decisions on.

The Wildlife Management Associations of Texas

Ranch Dog/Michael,

I do respect the effort you have done for your place. I will look into WMA's in Red River Co and see what data they have.

I would also like to know what the data was before AR's were implemented.

I don't think your logic holds true for the number of hunters, as your neighbor can still run 13 hunters through the stand and now can kill 13 spikes or 13 good deer or a combination there of up to 26 total, and they are still leaving the mediocre or worse deer in the herd. You can definitely limit the number of deer killed, if there are none left to kill.

I have seen the county by county data. One problem is the vast variances in counties. If you compare the Red River area of Fannin County and the southern part, it's almost two different worlds. Deer census data would be tremendously different.

And the whole premise is deciding what's best to harvest, or deciding what can be harvested, based on someone else's desires or expectations, rather than one's own decisions.

Another control method is using the LAND. Permits issued for each size of acreage. So the guy with 10 acres only gets one permit every 5 years.

Ranch dog if ar is about limiting the harvest as you say in yor post then how come tpwd in its ultimate wisdom went from 1 buck and a doe in archery season only to 2 bucks and 2 does in rifle and archery season. That doubles the amount that can be taken and believe me when i say they[hunters] are taking em cause since ar rules went into effect 3yrs ago our numbers are crashing not going up. Im happy for you if yours are going up but i hunt hopkins co. alot andthats not happening here. Thats my problem with ar rules, they need more county to county bag limits change and less what works for one county must work for all countys. I would hate it but would vote for it if they would close the season a couple of years till the numbers went back up to what they should be in our county

Last comment on this subject for me...Just want to state my opinion: AR's suck................

True, the killing is over once they are gone. At least with ARs a middle group of bucks survive. An assumption is always made that these are inferior deer. They are not inferior, they simply are not mature bucks in their prime. You will not kill all the mature bucks, they are too slick for the average feeder-huinting hunter.

[quote=sig226fan (Rguns.com)]I would also like to know what the data was before AR's were implemented.[quote]

The data is there with your WMA and Biologist, not in Austin. Nothing is changed without data to support it. My WMA has been collecting data since 1991 so I know we have a good handle on what is working and what doesn't work. ARs work here.

[quote=Ranch Dog]True, the killing is over once they are gone. At least with ARs a middle group of bucks survive.[quote]

So.....your grand plan is to breed bucks to another buck??????????

Hoytman, again the one buck and doe doesn't solve the problem because it is "hunter" based. You cannot control the numbers of hunters that show up to kill deer. ARs classify a buck deer into three groups and those groups have a known population. Once the supply is gone the hunt is over no matter how many hunters are put in the field. Hunters can keep pouring in but there might not be any of the two legal groups of deer left. With ARs the middle group survives.

May be at the start your deer herd was beyond the carrying capacity of the land. We have sub-management units within our WMA in this situation and we adjust the issue of permits to maintain the deer at what the land can support. These numbers are adjusted annually through data. You wouldn't want the numbers to "go up" in these counties because habitat loss due to fragmentation is constant. There is a capacity that cannot be exceeded, once the deer are at that level (carrying capacity) the only manipulation is with the buck to doe ratio and then harvesting near the fawn survival rate (the replacements). This is basic whitetail management and the numbers are always throughly addressed in our semi-annual meetings. I suspect that you could receive the specifics for your county through the same source. We advertise our meetings in the local paper weeks out ahead of the program. We want people to know that these aren't card tricks. We want guys and gals on both sides of the AR issue out counting deer for us. Getting involved takes you out of the argument and puts you into the math behind whitetail management. I don't know how else to explain it. I damned sure don't want to alienate you, I would like you to get involved in your specific county. The answers to the AR argument is not on this forum.

Okay, two great responses so I'm done with this and going back out to do what I do... supporting ARs in my County!

So you admit there is no answer?????

My county went from 3 deer, 2 does and a buck. Now it is 5 deer. 3 does, 1 spike and 1 13 incher or 4 does and 1 spike or 4 does and 1 13 incher or 5 does. So, since we really have no 13 inchers around, I see alot of 4 doe and spike or 5 does harvest. If we take all the does out, how do we gain additional bucks

Lets say 50% have 2 fawns and 50% of those fawns are bucklings. If I take 5 does per year, how many bucks will never be born, not to mention how many doe will not be born for later breeding.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You want to control the herd, do it through bag limits. Don't blow smoke up my arse cuz IT BURNS!

Let's see...Ranchdog talks about AR's and how they can work....you blather on about slobs killing 5 does, because they can, regardless of its impact on the deer herd. You are right, it does sound like your county is in trouble, but not due to AR's!

Which county are you hunting in?

How does killing five does make one a slob?

Vernon

same thing could be said about the ability to kill a spike (people will b/c they can)....

I'm thinking if people are seeing ARs working then the property being hunted wasn't managed right before hand.

please tell me where the majority of these 160 class bucks are.... ive hunted in dewitt for the last 7 ot so years.... never seen anything like that...... at least not while hunting.... (i hunt out on 1447) im sure there are deer like that in dewitt, i just havent seen em where i was hunting.

"How does killing five does make one a slob?

Vernon"

In the context of the referenced poster's comments, this need explaining?

How about when after taking five does, one complains there are no deer (or not enough)..

Sort of like the wacko who kills his parents, then asks the judge for leniency because "I'm an orphan"...

(edited to make sure I specify I am not calling anyone a wacko murderer...it's an illustration)

You are absolutely correct, and where there are abundant hunters on relatively small acreages, management becomes difficult if not impossible. Cooperatives or wildlife management associations work great, but take work and dedication for results. MLD's and other management tools are available.

AR's create a mandated umbrella, obviously enjoyed by some, and despised by others.

Ranch Dog
You are spot on and I am glad you are here to carry the torch. Unfortunately it is obvious from these threads that the only way to effectively manage the public deer herd is to do so on a per acre basis.
It is ridiculous to think that 10 hunters should be able to tag out on a 10 acre tract.
Best of luck to all on this board.