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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: Huntmaster]
#8943636
10/25/23 11:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,313
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,313 |
It should be this way; if they don’t have coverage, you file on UM(if you had it) UM has a lower deductible and you get a rent car, and if you were injured..a liability claim. If no UM, Collision is your only choice. But it’s BS for your insurance premiums to go up because some hair ball hit you and doesn’t have any insurance.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: ntxtrapper]
#8943700
10/26/23 01:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,716
BigPig
THF Celebrity
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,716 |
It should be this way; if they don’t have coverage, you file on UM(if you had it) UM has a lower deductible and you get a rent car, and if you were injured..a liability claim. If no UM, Collision is your only choice. But it’s BS for your insurance premiums to go up because some hair ball hit you and doesn’t have any insurance. I got hit by a DART bud in a city owned & insured squad car and my rates went up. Wreck not my fault and has nothing to do with my personal insurance, dropped them like a hot potato.
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943705
10/26/23 01:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,865
The Dude Abides
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,865 |
Your HIGH insurance premiums are not because YOU have a bad driving record but rather your paying for all the idiots out there that have little or no insurance coverage. Good luck!
I am still looking for the perfect apron, one with reinforced knee areas would be perfect.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: BigPig]
#8943706
10/26/23 01:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,313
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,313 |
It should be this way; if they don’t have coverage, you file on UM(if you had it) UM has a lower deductible and you get a rent car, and if you were injured..a liability claim. If no UM, Collision is your only choice. But it’s BS for your insurance premiums to go up because some hair ball hit you and doesn’t have any insurance. I got hit by a DART bud in a city owned & insured squad car and my rates went up. Wreck not my fault and has nothing to do with my personal insurance, dropped them like a hot potato. We had those too and figured out marking “Police car on emergency” on the ST3/CRB3 prevents that. We marked it on all of our accidents after that.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943801
10/26/23 10:39 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
jrfan
OP
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OP
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I do have uninsured/underinsured insurance, $250 deductible vs. $1000 for collision. But as mentioned several times here, if I go that route, my premiums will go up. Hell, they went up earlier this year considerably for no reason. I actually started to take a pic of her front plate at the time, and she didn't have one. After that, it all happened pretty quick. She went into cuffs about the time I rolled up, and didn't really get close enough again to get any pics at that time. I am trying my hardest to keep my insurance out of it, doesn't look like I will be able to. I may be wrong, but I am almost certain the crash report is still incorrect and I won't be able to get the correct info. Progressive owes me another call when they've finished their "investigation", I will wait to see what they have to say before I go any further.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943806
10/26/23 11:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 43,993
Stub
THF Celebrity
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 43,993 |
Next door neighbor got hit by a gal who ran a Red light while texting on her phone. Police came and witness told the police the gal ran the light, she admitted to the police she ran the light while texting.
Neighbors carrier is USAA which is who we have and are usually great, not this time. The gal had full coverage (comprehensive) yet USAA was charging my neighbor his $500 deductible and trying to give him way under retail book value for his car, they offered them $10k. After helping him do research, they went back to USAA with retail value from several sources NADA and Edmunds and USAA ended up giving them over $13k, oh and they admitted that they should not have charged them their deductible since it was the other persons fault who had insurance.
You got to watch those insurance co. Maybe if you have a good ins. agent it probably makes the process go a lot easier
“I never forget a face—but in your case, I’ll be glad to make an exception.” —Groucho Marx
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943809
10/26/23 11:18 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,410
Huntmaster
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,410 |
“premiums will go up” … that may or may not have one thing to do with “you”. My rates have gone up almost every year and I haven’t had a auto claim in years. So, you could be the little old widow, school teacher; and your rates each year are going to go through the ceiling. At $100 an hour, cars costing $50 to $80 thousand, how can a company make money charging $2000 a year. (not counting liability payments to X attorney) Sounds like you’re doing the right things.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943813
10/26/23 11:25 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,410
Huntmaster
Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 2,410 |
Stub, not sure I’m following, comprehensive is not for a collision accident, Collision is? And if her company paid, under her policy, she would have a deductible, her company would subrogate against the other company and then and only then would she get her deductible back. Is that the right facts?
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: Huntmaster]
#8943826
10/26/23 11:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
jrfan
OP
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OP
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“premiums will go up” … that may or may not have one thing to do with “you”. My rates have gone up almost every year and I haven’t had a auto claim in years. So, you could be the little old widow, school teacher; and your rates each year are going to go through the ceiling. At $100 an hour, cars costing $50 to $80 thousand, how can a company make money charging $2000 a year. (not counting liability payments to X attorney) Sounds like you’re doing the right things. I would accept the fact that they raised my rates if I bought a new truck or my wife a new car. She is in a 7 year old car and I am in a 12 year old truck with 170k miles. I cannot remember the last time I had a claim of any kind, well over 10 years.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943829
10/26/23 12:00 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,410
Huntmaster
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We’re in exactly the same boat..except mine are a little older. And my rates went through the roof last year. Crappy situation.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943831
10/26/23 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,309
Stump_jumper
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I also hate dealing with them. Just after my divorce my ex was hit by a unlicensed uninsured illegal immigrant that ran a red light. I had just transferred the car to my daughter who in turn was going to transfer to the ex. The police got the streets wrong on their report and ex did not catch it. A year later the passenger lawyered up claiming injuries and lost wages. The lawyers served myself and daughter stating they were not sure who owned the vehicle at the time of the accident. Lawyers stated that my daughter and myself allowed an unsafe driver to use the car. Ex has never even had a ticket. They were grasping at straws and looking for money. Progressive initially told me not they worry because they had our backs then changed their mind. Progressive recreated the accident and determined the other driver was at fault. Fortunately the lawyers decided they had no case against myself and daughter. Once they dropped myself from the lawsuit I quit following it and never asked my ex about it. I never knew that an illegal immigrant can sue you.
2017 Tundra 5.7 CM 4x4 2006 Champion 2200 Bay Boat
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: Huntmaster]
#8943833
10/26/23 12:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 43,993
Stub
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Posts: 43,993 |
Stub, not sure I’m following, comprehensive is not for a collision accident, Collision is?
And if her company paid, under her policy, she would have a deductible, her company would subrogate against the other company and then and only then would she get her deductible back. Is that the right facts? I did say both parties had full coverage which includes Collision, I should have left off the Comprehensive for it is not part of Collison I think? (The gal had full coverage (comprehensive) yet USAA was charging my neighbor his $500 deductible) and trying to give him way under retail book value for his car,) My neighbor (He) was hit be another vehicle driven by a young woman who ran a Red light and admitted fault. I think you have my deductible comments mixed up, I did not speak of her deductible only my neighbors (his) So his insurance carrier USAA should make him whole now by paying him to replace his car, then USAA will get re-imbursed by her insurance carrier (subrogation). To the best of my limited knowledge, an insurance carrier will not take out a non at fault persons deductible out of their payout then re-imburse him after they settle with the at faults carrier
Last edited by Stub; 10/26/23 12:14 PM.
“I never forget a face—but in your case, I’ll be glad to make an exception.” —Groucho Marx
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8943842
10/26/23 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,271
Hudbone
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Couple of things here and don't shoot the messenger. Just trying to put the truth behind it all in persepective so you know what you are really dealing with.
Insurance pricing used to be simple. Nowadays with memory resources being so easy to manage, companies are charging out for everything. File a claim of any type, at fault, not at fault (including un-insured motorists), towing, deer, hail, theft and/or whatever and your rate will likely go up. In addition, these incidents used to be held against you for three years. We are more commonly seeing this for five and seven years these days. Like it or not, that is what is happening.
The pricing stuff indicated above is OVER AND ABOVE the more general increases created by the current economic environment. Most all underwriters are bleeding heavily and this rate increase trend is likely to sustain itself for at least the near future. If you had no claims in the past five years, your rates are likely to still increase. That is what is happening. It's just as bad on the home insurance front.
I hear that crapola of if , "I can understand an increase in insurance costs if I buy a new car" all the time. Your liability does not change when you buy a new car. Neither does UM Bodily Injurym rental reimpbursement, personal injury protection, towing & more - these major components of pricing have nothing to do with anyone having a new car. As for collsion coverage, yes, the cost of a total loss does go down, but the cost of a repair has risen significantly. Hugely in fact.
Driving without adequate UM coverage is dicey and especially right now. The state got the the rate of un-insured motorists down to about 20% (not a misprint). With rising prices and what is flooding in across the border, I would expect the 20% figure to increase. In addition and even if a vehicle is insured, state minimum lmits are set at $30K per person/$60K per accident and with a property damage liability limit of, get this, $25K. Hate to say it, but $30K ain't much "spit" these days. $25k for property damage - just let that sink in.
You can't depend on LEO for adequate contact infomrmation and we tell this to all our clients - Auto claims have placed a lot of stress on insurance markets. Attorneys are taking extreme advantage of distracted driving and increased congestion. We have found quick contact with claimants can be instrumental in keeping stress levels down. Please take a photo of the other driver’s insurance card and try to obtain names, cell numbers and e-mail addresses for all involved in an auto incident. Police reports aren't always completed, take forever to obtain and often do not have anything other than mailing address. If you don't know who to conact, you can just sit there and get muddled up in its "system".
I can understand how so many get peeved and perturbed with the system. Have a claim which is not your fault and you have a lot of rigmarole to navigate. No one pays you for it.
I really appreciate the notion where somes think threats get them some where. Insurance policies are unilateral contracts. It's the adjuster's professional duty to make you whole while limiting the company's loss to the contractual document they sold. They don't always get everything correct at first, but more often than not, they do.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: Hudbone]
#8943846
10/26/23 12:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,508
DQ Kid
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,508 |
Couple of things here and don't shoot the messenger. Just trying to put the truth behind it all in persepective so you know what you are really dealing with.
Insurance pricing used to be simple. Nowadays with memory resources being so easy to manage, companies are charging out for everything. File a claim of any type, at fault, not at fault (including un-insured motorists), towing, deer, hail, theft and/or whatever and your rate will likely go up. In addition, these incidents used to be held against you for three years. We are more commonly seeing this for five and seven years these days. Like it or not, that is what is happening.
The pricing stuff indicated above is OVER AND ABOVE the more general increases created by the current economic environment. Most all underwriters are bleeding heavily and this rate increase trend is likely to sustain itself for at least the near future. If you had no claims in the past five years, your rates are likely to still increase. That is what is happening. It's just as bad on the home insurance front.
I hear that crapola of if , "I can understand an increase in insurance costs if I buy a new car" all the time. Your liability does not change when you buy a new car. Neither does UM Bodily Injurym rental reimpbursement, personal injury protection, towing & more - these major components of pricing have nothing to do with anyone having a new car. As for collsion coverage, yes, the cost of a total loss does go down, but the cost of a repair has risen significantly. Hugely in fact.
Driving without adequate UM coverage is dicey and especially right now. The state got the the rate of un-insured motorists down to about 20% (not a misprint). With rising prices and what is flooding in across the border, I would expect the 20% figure to increase. In addition and even if a vehicle is insured, state minimum lmits are set at $30K per person/$60K per accident and with a property damage liability limit of, get this, $25K. Hate to say it, but $30K ain't much "spit" these days. $25k for property damage - just let that sink in.
You can't depend on LEO for adequate contact infomrmation and we tell this to all our clients - Auto claims have placed a lot of stress on insurance markets. Attorneys are taking extreme advantage of distracted driving and increased congestion. We have found quick contact with claimants can be instrumental in keeping stress levels down. Please take a photo of the other driver’s insurance card and try to obtain names, cell numbers and e-mail addresses for all involved in an auto incident. Police reports aren't always completed, take forever to obtain and often do not have anything other than mailing address. If you don't know who to conact, you can just sit there and get muddled up in its "system".
I can understand how so many get peeved and perturbed with the system. Have a claim which is not your fault and you have a lot of rigmarole to navigate. No one pays you for it.
I really appreciate the notion where somes think threats get them some where. Insurance policies are unilateral contracts. It's the adjuster's professional duty to make you whole while limiting the company's loss to the contractual document they sold. They don't always get everything correct at first, but more often than not, they do.
Great breakdown Hud!!!
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: DQ Kid]
#8943995
10/26/23 04:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
jrfan
OP
Veteran Tracker
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OP
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151 |
Couple of things here and don't shoot the messenger. Just trying to put the truth behind it all in persepective so you know what you are really dealing with.
Insurance pricing used to be simple. Nowadays with memory resources being so easy to manage, companies are charging out for everything. File a claim of any type, at fault, not at fault (including un-insured motorists), towing, deer, hail, theft and/or whatever and your rate will likely go up. In addition, these incidents used to be held against you for three years. We are more commonly seeing this for five and seven years these days. Like it or not, that is what is happening.
The pricing stuff indicated above is OVER AND ABOVE the more general increases created by the current economic environment. Most all underwriters are bleeding heavily and this rate increase trend is likely to sustain itself for at least the near future. If you had no claims in the past five years, your rates are likely to still increase. That is what is happening. It's just as bad on the home insurance front.
I hear that crapola of if , "I can understand an increase in insurance costs if I buy a new car" all the time. Your liability does not change when you buy a new car. Neither does UM Bodily Injurym rental reimpbursement, personal injury protection, towing & more - these major components of pricing have nothing to do with anyone having a new car. As for collsion coverage, yes, the cost of a total loss does go down, but the cost of a repair has risen significantly. Hugely in fact.
Driving without adequate UM coverage is dicey and especially right now. The state got the the rate of un-insured motorists down to about 20% (not a misprint). With rising prices and what is flooding in across the border, I would expect the 20% figure to increase. In addition and even if a vehicle is insured, state minimum lmits are set at $30K per person/$60K per accident and with a property damage liability limit of, get this, $25K. Hate to say it, but $30K ain't much "spit" these days. $25k for property damage - just let that sink in.
You can't depend on LEO for adequate contact infomrmation and we tell this to all our clients - Auto claims have placed a lot of stress on insurance markets. Attorneys are taking extreme advantage of distracted driving and increased congestion. We have found quick contact with claimants can be instrumental in keeping stress levels down. Please take a photo of the other driver’s insurance card and try to obtain names, cell numbers and e-mail addresses for all involved in an auto incident. Police reports aren't always completed, take forever to obtain and often do not have anything other than mailing address. If you don't know who to conact, you can just sit there and get muddled up in its "system".
I can understand how so many get peeved and perturbed with the system. Have a claim which is not your fault and you have a lot of rigmarole to navigate. No one pays you for it.
I really appreciate the notion where somes think threats get them some where. Insurance policies are unilateral contracts. It's the adjuster's professional duty to make you whole while limiting the company's loss to the contractual document they sold. They don't always get everything correct at first, but more often than not, they do.
Great breakdown Hud!!! Thank you, I get. I guess the pill that's hard to swallow, is that I will be penalized for something that I have no fault/part in.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944021
10/26/23 04:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,271
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,271 |
They tracked all this stuff backwards through their books and found if you file a claim, any claim, then you are statistically are more likely to file again in the future. It sucks and I hate it. I just get to deal with it day in and day out.
We are pretty much moving all deductibles to $1,000 and somes are choosing to go even higher. Just doesn't pay for the extra cost of providing lower deductibles and then filing a small claim to get little only to have your costs rise again.
Last edited by Hudbone; 10/26/23 04:38 PM.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944067
10/26/23 05:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,574
redchevy
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,574 |
I’m not saying you are at fault by any means, but I see people every day that drive super conservative maintain a huge following distance are on the brakes hard at the first hint of a slow down or brake light flash in front of them. Many are older when I pass them. I’m not saying it’s an excuse, but I would be shocked if they don’t get rear ended at a significantly higher rate than you more typical driver.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944086
10/26/23 06:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,321
Couzin
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,321 |
The investigating/affidavit writing officer should look up the VIN number and associated insurance rider (if any). Even if no current insurance, the registered owner has responsibility (unless he/she can prove theft).
Only at the end do you realize the power of the Dark Side.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: redchevy]
#8944088
10/26/23 06:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,663
QuitShootinYoungBucks
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,663 |
I’m not saying you are at fault by any means, but I see people every day that drive super conservative maintain a huge following distance are on the brakes hard at the first hint of a slow down or brake light flash in front of them. Many are older when I pass them. I’m not saying it’s an excuse, but I would be shocked if they don’t get rear ended at a significantly higher rate than you more typical driver. I see a far-larger percentage of people tail-gating everyday than I do people with large following distances.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#8944090
10/26/23 06:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,319
Herbie Hancock
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,319 |
I see a far-larger percentage of people tail-gating everyday than I do people with large following distances. This by far.
It takes beer to make thirst worthwhile - J. Fred Schmidt
The internet is an I.Q. Test, people post their scores in the comment section.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: redchevy]
#8944139
10/26/23 08:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
jrfan
OP
Veteran Tracker
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OP
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Posts: 2,151 |
I’m not saying you are at fault by any means, but I see people every day that drive super conservative maintain a huge following distance are on the brakes hard at the first hint of a slow down or brake light flash in front of them. Many are older when I pass them. I’m not saying it’s an excuse, but I would be shocked if they don’t get rear ended at a significantly higher rate than you more typical driver. Ha. This is certainly not me, I have a pretty heavy foot. The investigating/affidavit writing officer should look up the VIN number and associated insurance rider (if any). Even if no current insurance, the registered owner has responsibility (unless he/she can prove theft). He did do this, or so I am told. I asked to verify all info and her says it's correct. I just question the validity based on the first report having all incorrect info.
Last edited by jrfan; 10/26/23 08:33 PM.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944175
10/26/23 09:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,614
chalet
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,614 |
I've been directly involved in 99% of claims filed against against or by our company the last 23 years. My insurance has paid out plenty of claims that I didn't feel were just or we should have paid and it def negatively affects premiums. However the flip side of that is big trucks are seen as rolling ATM's by ambulance chasers so sometimes its better just to give the claimant a few thousand to fix their beater and get down the road. Still pisses me off. Best one was a young lady in an older vehicle with bald tires that hydroplaned one night, bounced off a concrete divider and went under one of our units. She walked off with a $100,000 minus attorney and costs even after her liability insurance paid to fix my trailer.
Couple things that help us mitigate costs after an incident. #1 dashcams - can make it very clear what happened and LEO's can even use our footage at the scene to help determine fault. They have helped us way more than they have hurt us so far. #2 cell pictures - get immediate pics of everything at the scene. 360 degree shots on all vehicles involved, pics of other driver, any passengers, skid marks, license plates, vin plates, insurance cards, driver licenses, etc. You can't take too many pictures. #3 Get insurance involved immediately.
You have to get all that info yourself because the LEO may not get it right or at all sometimes. Not dogging those guys that's just the way it is.
JR - sorry about your wife and the car, these deals just suck sometimes.
Shoot. Eat. Repeat.
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944202
10/26/23 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,750
603Country
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,750 |
That wreck of ours that I posted a picture of was what finally convinced me to get an IPhone. The wife was recording everything with her phone, which was very helpful later, and I needed to call folks - wrecker, DPS, rent-a-car, insurance and maybe an ambulance (that wasn’t necessary, thankfully). And I had no phone numbers and no smart phone to do all that with. I got an iPhone shortly after that.
Naturally, the guy that hit us from behind eventually tried to blame it on us, but he didn’t get very far with that, thanks to our photo recording of everything.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944214
10/26/23 10:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,340
Creekrunner
THF Celebrity
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,340 |
There are a ton of elderly in Boerne Texas that shouldn't be driving, but there they are. My biggest fear is that I'll be one of them sooner than I expect.
Combine that with the younger set looking at their phones at every red (turned green!) light and stop sign, and you've got a real mess. There was a guy on I10 last week in the left lane, next to a semi, holding up 4 or 5 cars, me being one of them, for many miles. I saw enough gap and passed him on the right. He was weaving and had his phone in his lap, looking down at it. I honked and through my hands up. He got off at the next exit, hopefully 'cause his wife or girlfriend told him he was gonna kill 'em. Stupid people.
...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
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Re: I hate dealing with auto accidents...
[Re: jrfan]
#8944222
10/26/23 10:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,614
chalet
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,614 |
Had a gal rearend one of our trailers at a stop on 635 one evening. Driver ran back, the girls airbags had deployed and her Mom was on facetime freaking out saying "what just happened baby, are you alright?"
Shoot. Eat. Repeat.
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Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
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