Smokey, I agree with all that. And I would say the same thing about archery gear as I do smaller calibers. To both I say It’s fine to use them but there are better choices than either archery or small caliber if your goal is to have the highest probability of a quick kill and recovery.
I definitely agree about the poor shots with big guns vs good shots with little gun. I’m always talking apples to apples…..same guy, same situations, same skill level etc etc. Yes it works but no it’s not usually the best choice, IMO.

Depends on what you are doing Free. Teaching a small young kid to shoot and deer hunt there are few better choices. With the young and the small, if they are taught good fundamentals, and given enough opportunity to master it, recoil may be the biggest underlying hindrance to top shooting. Learning not only how to shoot, but also where and when to shoot as well as when not to shoot is an integral piece of the equation. Prepared like this it works, every single time, and the deer don’t go far. Culling does to eat and maintain the target population balance, a .223 is also excellent. Easy to place the bullet exactly where you want it for instant kills with minimal or no meat destruction. Sure it depends some on who is wielding the rifle but that goes for any rifle or bow for that matter. If a kid between the ages of 7 and 10 can be 100% effective on over 20 deer, it works just fine. The deer I kill with my 7RM are no deader than the deer my boy killed with a .223. The recovery rate was exactly the same. The real limitation lies in the one pulling the trigger and how reasonable his expectations of what he is shooting are and his skill level. I’ve posted this before but I will say it again. I have dogs that blood track. The overwhelming majority of deer shot with firearms they have recovered for people have been from poor hits with big guns. The vast majority of wounded deer lost are attributed to shooter error rather than caliber. Ultimately I think it is cool to be a part of this forum where most of us have the common ground of deer hunting. I do take most of what I read here with a grain of salt. Too many sometimes repeat what the bell cows they follow have said as if it were gospel, without having done it themselves.

Smokey, that is a great post and all should read. I have more respect for Smokey than I do myself when it comes to firearms, hunting and conservation. Y’all should pay attention to his stuff.
I agree 100% on a smaller caliber for an accomplished mentor properly teaching a novice. I hate recoil and I’m sure most novices do. I have a 22250 which I would use to teach a novice but I would graduate them to my 708AI as soon as I felt they were ready for it. Less meat loss is important to some so check that box as well.
I really like that you added those last few sentences-I feel same way.

It's lethal however I believe t's a marginal round and the prefect placement isn't always assured. My minimum is a 243 100 grain and most confident is 30-06 150 grain

Use it!
It will help you hone your skills as a tracker!

I wouldn’t do it. My first deer i killed with a 222 and it took 3 shots to put him down. My cousin used a 223 for her first last year and it took 2 rounds. Maybe for a doe or something might be ok.

Not denying. But why wouldn’t you use something bigger given the choice? Margin for error is small with that small of a cartridge.

Smokey, I agree with all that. And I would say the same thing about archery gear as I do smaller calibers. To both I say It’s fine to use them but there are better choices than either archery or small caliber if your goal is to have the highest probability of a quick kill and recovery.
I definitely agree about the poor shots with big guns vs good shots with little gun. I’m always talking apples to apples…..same guy, same situations, same skill level etc etc. Yes it works but no it’s not usually the best choice, IMO.

I’m gonna assume based on your comments you have never killed a deer with a bow.


A broadhead, especially an expandable broadhead absolutely destroys the chest cavity of whatever it goes thru.

A broadhead tipped arrow placed in the heart/lung area will have just as high of a kill ratio as a .300 win mag will. You give up nothing except for effective range with archery equipment. I’ve made some bad shots as well that resulted in a short track job.

To date the only thing I’ve shot that I needed to upgrade equipment on was a 2000 lb water Buffalo( i subsequently shot the water Buffalo 9 times with a .375 H&H before he gave up the ghost). The same broadhead/arrow combination made short work of an American Bison.

I’ve killed deer and pigs with a .223 and up to buffalo size game with a bow and will say I do not feel handicapped at all with the capabilities of modern archery equipment.

I’m gonna assume based on your comments you have never killed a deer with a bow.


A broadhead, especially an expandable broadhead absolutely destroys the chest cavity of whatever it goes thru.

A broadhead tipped arrow placed in the heart/lung area will have just as high of a kill ratio as a .300 win mag will. You give up nothing except for effective range with archery equipment. I’ve made some bad shots as well that resulted in a short track job.

To date the only thing I’ve shot that I needed to upgrade equipment on was a 2000 lb water Buffalo( i subsequently shot the water Buffalo 9 times with a .375 H&H before he gave up the ghost). The same broadhead/arrow combination made short work of an American Bison.

I’ve killed deer and pigs with a .223 and up to buffalo size game with a bow and will say I do not feel handicapped at all with the capabilities of modern archery equipment.

Depends on what you are doing Free. Teaching a small young kid to shoot and deer hunt there are few better choices. With the young and the small, if they are taught good fundamentals, and given enough opportunity to master it, recoil may be the biggest underlying hindrance to top shooting. Learning not only how to shoot, but also where and when to shoot as well as when not to shoot is an integral piece of the equation. Prepared like this it works, every single time, and the deer don’t go far. Culling does to eat and maintain the target population balance, a .223 is also excellent. Easy to place the bullet exactly where you want it for instant kills with minimal or no meat destruction. Sure it depends some on who is wielding the rifle but that goes for any rifle or bow for that matter. If a kid between the ages of 7 and 10 can be 100% effective on over 20 deer, it works just fine. The deer I kill with my 7RM are no deader than the deer my boy killed with a .223. The recovery rate was exactly the same. The real limitation lies in the one pulling the trigger and how reasonable his expectations of what he is shooting are and his skill level. I’ve posted this before but I will say it again. I have dogs that blood track. The overwhelming majority of deer shot with firearms they have recovered for people have been from poor hits with big guns. The vast majority of wounded deer lost are attributed to shooter error rather than caliber. Ultimately I think it is cool to be a part of this forum where most of us have the common ground of deer hunting. I do take most of what I read here with a grain of salt. Too many sometimes repeat what the bell cows they follow have said as if it were gospel, without having done it themselves.

broads and bullets are not a good comparison. Completely different wound channel
methodology. Also the whole bang flop persona in my experience is more shot placement then head stamp.