I hunted a place that was a little over 400 acres several years ago, long before AR's were as widely accepted, and we had few deer, and anything over a six point pencil horn buck was rare.
I watched a small buck run across one of our fields and shortly after it jumped the fence I heard a bang.
Opening day you would hear what sounded like a war but after an hour or two those shots died off.
After the AR's started it was about three seasons and we noticed a big difference in the numbers of deer and the size of the deer and antlers.
It works as there have been some fine bucks killed there and numbers of deer now make that trip worthwhile.
A lot of younger hunters who never experienced what I described above were too young to remember what pre AR's was like.
I do think TPWD could have managed AR's better and made adjustments in certain counties and on bag limits, but they seem to be afraid to make any changes at all.

^^^^^^

I can remember when there weren't any deer at all East of I-35 until you got out to about Lexington. Manor, Elgin, Taylor...was all pretty much farmland.

A lot of Rattlesnakes around Manor though (back in the day).

We used to cruise the roads behind Manor High School about dusk....and catch rattlesnakes on the roads (April through June).

Of course, now....Austin swallowed up all small towns that used to be around it and everything is all grown up.

IMO, the Antler Restrictions (AR) only covers 1 of 3 categories
13" spread is only one

the other two would be basal circumference and main beam length. Generally speaking a mature buck by many people standards (4.5) is going to have 4.5" bases and main beams will be 19" or greater (on a low fence ranch)

AR could be written as such: Buck must have a minimum 13" spread, one antler must have 4.5" basal circumference or 18" main beam. This will eliminate bucks that are 1.5 and 2.5 years old. It does open up the 3.5 year old age class, but also allows a 5.5 year old with inferior antlers to get taken as its bases will be 4.5" even if spread is narrow (less than 13")

TxTro has very closely explained how I feel on the subject. Thank you for saving me the time to type.

You really think the average hunter is going to be able to tell if a deer has 4 1/2” bases?

Hell, I’ve shot plenty of 6 year old bucks that didn’t have 4 1/2” bases. Most areas of Texas won’t have a buck with 4 1/2” bases at any age.



Come on guys…..

The main purpose of Antler Restrictions is to increase the average age of bucks. I remember prior to AR's, it was fairly rare to see a 3 year old+ buck. Now, I see them all the time. No, AR's are not perfect, but they have attained the goal of allowing deer to mature. Yes, with AR's, there are some high and tight bucks that are off limits long past when they should be. Yes, the 13" rule also allows some bucks that show a lot of potential to get shot prematurely. It is, however, a better system than before.



I might could get on board with something like this ^^^ I would change it to " Buck must have a minimum 13" spread or one antler must have 4.5" basal circumference or 18" main beam.

The only issue I see with changing the rule is the KISS principal. The current rule is 13" spread, or one unbranched antler. That is pretty simple, yet there is still some confusion as it is. Adding to it will only create more confusion.

Having the (1) un-branched antler rule says sure "its ok to shoot 1.5 year old bucks"

Whoever is suggesting and approving these buck harvest laws needs a "second opinion" The laws need to be UPDATED to 2020 standards

Like many of you, I hunt in a 2 buck county, but I am not going to shoot a 1.5 year old buck (so I really hunt in a 1 buck county)

Yeah, This isn't practical. 13" spread works fine. Anyone who can't figure that out needs to play pickle ball rather than deer hunt.

Agree. this law should satisfy the "kids aren't able to shoot nuthin' " crowd. But TPWD still believes in the Kerr Study so we have that law in place

and I agree that it specifically targets yearling deer. I've seen maybe 1 deer out of the many thousands I've come across that had a spike at 2 years old.

This is two years in a row I've got a mature long spike because it's nuts are up inside it. Transgendeer

1) the Kerr Study is outdated (and makes no sense to have a general law that says it is OK to shoot 1.5 year old bucks). *****YES, I know there are some MLD ranches who suggest taking spike bucks, but that is a part of a harvest program and should not be general rule/law for all

2) Back to my comment above regarding the 13" rule we have in place. I will be clearer in suggesting a legal buck shall have a 13" spread or a 19" main beam or 4.5" base (only one characteristic must apply). This will eliminate many 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks from being legal, but will almost always apply to a mature buck (remember just one of the characteristics must apply). The 4.5" base is only going to benefit the ability to shoot an old buck with narrow rack and who knows maybe the law would be a 4" base upon final approval. The point I am trying to make is current laws need to be amended.

Is there any other state that has a requirement that a beam be X amount of length or have a minimum base measurement? I’m not aware of any.

Would be way too hard for a guy to calculate that accurately that’s why states do either a minimum point rule ( cause most hunters can count) or a minimum spread rule where you can use the ears as a guide.

My idea of having the 3 parameters is not something I just made up

When I was a kid there was a hunting club that had a rule that if a buck did not meet just ONE of the requirements of 1) min spread OR 2) main beam OR 3) basal circumference, that club fined the hunter $500, which would be like a $1500 fine today (since this was in the early 90s). ***Club members from this camp shot some of the biggest bucks in the Region

Rules/Laws that require a certain number of points are DUMB (and so 1990ish)

The whole point is making sure people/hunters let bucks get some age on them (AND not punishing a hunter for shooting an old management buck) I am also in the camp says the Kerr Study should not be used for determining a LAW because 9 out of 10 spikes are 1.5 year old bucks (too young)

Have not seen any improvements where I hunt in Mills county or Williamson. Same old same

Where do you hunt in Mills? I've hunted there for 42 years and can tell you that myself and most of the people I know would disagree with you wholeheartedly about no improvement in Mills county. It's easy to track, too. Just look at all the harvest pics in the Goldthwaite Eagle newspaper the last 30 years. Used to be one, maybe two LF deer killed over 140" back then. Now, I see pics of 10-yr olds with their first buck, and it's a 130" 10pt. I hunted 28 years before killing one that good. Our ranch record was right at 130" and stood from 1984 to 2009. It's been broken twice since then. Last year I had 5 mature bucks on camera that were taken by neighbors; all were 10pts or better and the biggest was over 150".

None of that happens to a LF place without ARs.

Quit, I agree with all that except the last sentence. You probably know this, but if the place is big enough and/or the neighbors are too and everyone practices basic management of not shooting young bucks then AR is not needed. But smaller places and in areas that just are not management savvy/disciplined then AR can certainly help get age on bucks.

That is a lot of If's. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Quit's statement is right 99% of the time.

Major improvements in Hopkins county, used to be 1 buck, no doe county and bucks never reached 3 years old. In the last couple years I have no problem passing small legal bucks and even some very nice but young bucks because I see some really nice older bucks often. But I agree that there needs to be a way to cull older narrow bucks, maybe a cull tag per a certain # of acres, a bonus cull tag that could be bought, or something to get the bad genes out!

The genes are never going to be culled out, they were always there, you just didn’t see them because the deer that carry a narrow rack genetic got shot at one or two years old.

Not to mention does carry 50% of the genetics so you could kill every narrow racked mature buck you saw and 5 years later you would have an equal number of narrow racked bucks.

People do not understand how genetics work

Just go on MLD if you want to shoot deer that ARs protect. If you are managing the deer herd to the point that culling those deer would be any benefit you are likely already doing what you need to for MLD.

If those are the only mature deer you are seeing you wouldn’t be seeing any mature deer without the ARs.

Our ranch’s genetic profile is very representative of our corner of Young County and in 15 years of tracking the unique bucks (~90 per given year that make an appearance) there has only been one single buck that has not been legal from a width perspective by the age of 3.5.

Good info, double ac. Pretty much my experience-but many will say different.

If you and your neighbors are dedicated to raise bucks with a better rack then go get a number of does brought in from a known area of bigger racks. In four years of turnover in process you will have a "theoretical gene" established. This can and will work even though it is only a technical process. But if you are working from a 13" area you will always have a circular gene in the process. But if ya sanitize a fenced in area with only the better gene animals you will get the better racks established...with no guarantee.. only by theory which many places are successful and some are not. Just my opinion....I can not argue the point as I personally have not carried out this process but others have...thus deer farms.
In my opinion ....you can't harvest your way out of the gene pool as 13" gene pool is "circular"...meaning the gene is established through all does at some level.
Can you produce outside the established gene pool...possible, "but not for long" ...only for a short time...as the dominated gene will always win out after a given time. Can ya produce some bucks with a better rack? ...I think yes.. some possibly.
Just my opinion.

I would love to see it for the youth ,

Texas law is and should be for all hunters. Yes, I agree, we hunters should be able to keep the buck population under control whatever the process. In our area hunters were taking chances weather a buck is less than 13". Some bucks didn't make the 13" mark. We were lucky on our lease as we had enough deer where we were able to take all 13" and larger. I would like to see special tags for every 100 acres a buck less than 13" could be harvested. If this don't do the job then up the amount. We the hunters should have the right to control our herd in a way that we could keep the small spread racks down just as the bigger leases have that right with buck tags. If any lease has the right to control bucks so should we with smaller leases have the same right. The process now includes some smaller leased groups to unite for the WLM. This is not the answer in my opinion. Just simple, a tag every 100 acres can do the job. To get a change we have to count how many do each of our leases really have in comparison to the total amount of bucks counted.

I don't see the AR's being reworked to remove it or to open it up as an age of the buck type of harvesting. Genetics are, and always will be a crap shoot with how one gene becomes dominate and one becomes a recessive gene. You can do away with negative options for a deer herd if it is held in a breeding program, and you take out years of unwanted gene affects, but can't do that with wild herds. Why not open to season up and have a scrub buck season, either early or late season without having MLD tags for it?