Link to where you found the non resident data please? I may be confused with your responses, but I am not trying to debate you. I just want to see how they came up with that range. You are the first I can remember anyone present that figure. I was unable to find it, but I am at a lakehouse on my phone.

This is from another website and it's supposed to be from TPWD email reply regarding NR applicants:

Only about 4 - 7% of our applicants on a given year are from outside of Texas and only about 2% of permits end up going to these non-residents. A number of western states limit the number of permits to a max percentage of non-residents (often times 5-10%). We feel like the small number of out of state applicants we have each year is self-limiting. If Texas hunters were losing out on significant amounts of hunting opportunity because of the low non-resident fees, I think there would be an appetite for change. However, we don't feel that we have reached that point yet.

Now it would be safe to assume NRs are applying for the better hunts, but it doesn't look like they're drawing a lot of them.

Why does TPWD have it publicaly stated on draw odds and statistics

We should at min require a Hunting License to enter. We don’t because already have enough Resident participation in OTC to max out the formula for Pittman- Roberston money

Just figured I would chime in as a (current) a non-resident. I have 10 points for gun deer either sex and 8 for mule deer. And yes, I will apply to Chaparral and matador as usual and likely take my points to roll over another year. Unlike other non-residents, I actually have hunted Chaparral as a child on spike hunts and saw some massive bucks, so yeah I want to hunt there still and its the only hunt I put in for. Sorry, not interested in trying to shoot a deer at a state park!

Any buck hunt opportunity is basically like winning the lottery in these Texas draws. When I worked at Devils River I talked to guys that had almost 30 points and guys that drew with 0 points. At least you have the chance to draw a coveted tag, whereas in other western states, there are units that if you start applying today you will guaranteed to never draw in a lifetime due to point creep. It just is what it is, the issue is not non-resident hunters. Texas just has an appalling lack of public land and quality hunting opportunities available to hunters. Just look at the permit availability, for example mule deer. There are 50 permits available for all mule deer hunts combined in Black Gap and Big Bend SP in a land mass that would be equal to a western hunting unit that would probably provide hundreds of permits for multiple seasons. There is Chianti mountains and Devils River south unit that still are not even open to the public let alone have hunting opportunities. Most of the hunts are for population management for starving deer living in cedar thickets devoid of quality forage. Oh and you get to have your hand held and get your tiny pasture to hunt in etc. Texas does not trust hunters to even abide by the rules on a big game hunt without constant supervision. It is just kind of pathetic and a major reason why I left the state.

If you are going to require a hunting license for NR to enter, better lower the price from $310. I know you are not shelling out $310 bucks just to apply to Colorado...If you required a license purchase I would also like to see a dedicated NR tag allocation similar to other states closer to that 10% rather than the 4-7% that non-residents currently account for.

True, Colorado requires $105 to be able to apply and New Mexico requires $75. Of course you're a NR so I know you draw all the good tags!

thats incorrect

Texas NR hunt special license is $132 and is the equivalent to CO NR hunt license

In colorado I spend 112 for NR hunt license/habitat stamp and $340 a year In PP… SO I spend $454 a year just in applications and PP fees in CO. So an easy 350 more then Co or any NR sends applying in TX

CO NR is now a max of 20% on LE assuming there is a NR tag allocation, which means most NR will never draw due to PP system). CO also has many Resident only tags

NM is 6 or less percent. So Texas wouldnt even offer NR tags in most hunt codes, just like NM.

In Okla I spend 176 dollar on NR license to enter draw, they just changed law that 1/2 of All OIL tags go to 20pp holders. This basically cuts NR out due to application costs

You want AZ, Nevada, Utah, Montana also?


Nothing compares to Texas for NR. I apply in a lot of states

I play the game for sure and I usually have 4-5 big game tags in Colorado each year between different species/seasons which would not be feasible if I still lived in Texas. The ability to pick a tag up quickly if a leftover one is available without needing to plan and take off work is a luxury that you do not have. You have standby options, which are nowhere near comparable. As far as good tags, this year is the first that I have used points in CO after saving for a specific tag (3 points for a 3rd season mule deer tag). That same tag would take you about 10 years of saving up. That being said, the only mature mule deer buck I have been party to the harvest in 5 years up here was on a tag my buddy and I each drew with 0 points while I was still a non-resident transitioning up here for work. He shot a 168 inch 5.5 yo buck on that hunt. I have been trying to draw mule deer in Texas my whole adult life, and if I do draw some day the chance to get a crack at a 168 inch buck is going to be slim. The opportunities are not even comparable between the two states and being a resident in Colorado is supremely beneficial compared to the non-resident opportunities/cost.

CO costs a NR essentially 600 dollars before you even have a chance to draw a sheep tag, and another $100 ever year for PP.

Texas is $10

According to TPWD responses of 3-7% NR applications, they're already drawing NR hunter similar to NM so there's probably not much need to change the system.

CO also requires their residents to apply for 3 years before being eligible to draw a sheep tag.

I see, I did not even realize there was another option I have just bought the full license each year since I moved. I thought you were implying buy the full license with the deer tags. I would not have a problem with that because it is pretty in line with other states (qualifying license as it is called for the CO draw). If a small game/exotic license was required as a qualifying license just to enter draw hunts, it would be nice for the state to offer an "enhancement" license for non-residents that drew a permit so that they were not having to pay for the full hunting license w/deer tags after already purchasing the small game/fishing license.

It creates another barrier for entry, which is good or bad depending on where you stand. Demand outstripping supply requires barriers to entry, unfortunately. I was supportive of the qualifying license for Colorado. I know a lot of people don't like that you don't have to put the $ up front for Colorado which I can also understand.

LOL I don't need to argue about the cost of points I just bought my Wyoming points for the deer, elk, and pronghorn this morning. I only have a tag and points budget of about $1000 a year (almost half of which stays in CO), but I am guessing you have some skin in the game and maybe some real opportunities to draw some coveted tags if you are still putting in for that many species and states.

Yeah but that is not the full story!!!! Playing Texas draw is like playing the lotto like I said. In Colorado, you *might* draw a tag some day...we have many populations of sheep and many are growing.

Also (it gets worse sorry), Texas you are going for Desert Bighorns and in CO, there might be fewer desert bighorns than in Texas. Desert Bighorn in CO is resident only straight lotto no points, for about 6-10 tags a year!

it is the full story. Once in a life time tags are just that. Not everyone is ever going to draw.

NR and Resident in Texas compete for same number of tags regardless, Wether it is 1 or 5 sheep tags in Texas. Co there is only 1 NR desert sheep tag, NR aren't eligible to compete for the other 5-9. So your point is mute. There isnt one NR exempt hunt code in TX, right off top of my head I can think of 20 in CO, . There are lots of draw every other year type tags in TX especially COE.

No body is more vocal about other states limiting NR opportunity then me. I’m not asking for NR quota system like AZ, CO, UT, NV, MT, WY, NM, etc, Just want same COSTS for NR that Texans have to pay in all the other states.

I hear you and I don't think we are in disagreement on looking for NR to pay more, but some more transparency/data on who is applying and getting tags, and at what point levels, would also be informative. My point from my entry on this conversation was don't blame non-residents for the long odds on these hunts as it is the lack of public opportunity in Texas, and what opportunity there is they are going to hold your hand and give you only a few days to hunt. It just highlights the differences in the states but ultimately with what is available vs the demand in Texas, any change, even cutting NR out altogether, is not going to make much difference for your odds to draw a coveted tag such as Chaparral (which I don't even know if it is as high of quality as it used to be).

I also might add that there probably are a lot of non-residents applying to these hunts who do come to Texas every year to hunt either outfitted or on a lease, and they are contributing to local economies and paying into the license fees. Texas is not at the top of the list for nonresident states to start applying for, so you kind of have to know what you are doing or have been a resident to be aware of the public hunting opportunities let alone which ones might be good.

i

we are on same page. NR applications for Desert BH, Nilgai and Aoudad are mentioned on bunch on other state forums like RS, etc

Even App services like Hunting fools and Epic outdoors do Texas Sheep etc apps for customers also

If I have to pay to play out to state then they should also.

This is the issue right here. I've seen people complain on here about having a ton of points and not drawing a good hunt. Everyone blames the system or non resident hunters. Do those things help? Probably not. How many times has someone said, "I've put in that hunt for 20 years and still haven't drawn."

Guess what? You probably never will. Thousands of people apply every year and only a few permits are awarded. Chap had 5611 applicants for 26 permits. That gives you a .46% chance at getting drawn. Say half of those applicants were out of state hunters. 2805 applicants for 26 permits gives you a .92% chance at a draw. That's all without the points being cubed.

Lets break it down even further and cube the points. Say 5% of the pool has 20+ preference points, 10% has 15-19 points, 10% has 10-14 points, 20% has 5-9, and the other 55% has less than 5. For simple math for each category lets work off of 20 points, 17 points, 13 points, 7 points, and 2 points. That's a total of 6,702,059 entries. That gives your 20 preference points an 11.94% chance of hitting. WAY better than before preference points existed but still a not great. Say 1600 of those applicants were non resident. That's about 19% of the applicants which I assume is way more than reality. Your odds would go up to 14%. Not a huge change.

The issue people should be arguing over is the lack of public land and opportunity in Texas. Because arguing about the points system, nonresidents, or all of that other crap isn't going to fix anything.

You want to fix Draw, best you can do is three choices per species regardless of weapon choice. Making NR pay to play, will also help

Public land argument doesn't exist. Texas was deeded out before state hood. Anymore Public land needs to acquired via open market and not ED. All federal land in Texas was essentially bought. Anyone signing an ED order should be hung.

You can public every year in TX. Also you can draw tags atleast every other year

I'm not necessarily saying they should acquire more land. Just utilize the land they have better. They're begging people to harvest deer at Enchanted Rock and It has the capacity to host far more hunts. But they don't because they have to close the park down. Plenty of places like that exist or they don't allow hunting on them. There is more opportunity than we are accessing.

When it's all said and done, I hunt Texas public somewhere via draw every year. I put in for most of them. If I don't draw I go standby. If I don't get standby I hunt the NF. If the NF gets too crazy I'll go fishing.

I'm never going to draw Colorado unit 2 for elk. I won't live that long. I'm not likely to draw Arizona Unit 1 for elk. I probably won't live long enough to draw Wyoming's red desert for pronghorn, but I can draw a tag in all three of those states at least one out of 4 years. That means if I manage it right I hunt three out of 4 years. So much emphasis is put on drawing the "best" unit. I want to draw Chaparral as much as anybody and I usually put in for it. But, at my age I'd rather just go. So if we limited to two or three choices, I may not swing for the fences. I would probably drop Chaparral for better odds.

As far as increasing the amount of available land to hunt, I'd be willing to pay more for "super" tags. Say a landowner put up a property for lease to TPW. TPW runs a super tag for a draw to hunt the property. Applicants pay a pretty good application fee (say $50 but could be more or less depending on the lease) and a serious lease fee ($200-300 but I don't know what it would take). Landowner gets 60% of the app fee and 100% of the lease. Just an idea. I haven't thought this through totally. TPW or a third party manages the hunt. Break a rule, your out of the entire draw system for 1 to 5 years. I've been thinking about a way to increase tag availability. None of them work without hunters putting more $ in the system. It has to be attractive to the landowner. Participants could be required to join the third party management NGO and volunteer to manage one hunt each year. Again, I'm just thinking and typing this as I go.

With the inverse of that I would imagine most big hunts would start going to nonresidents. Residents would start applying for better odds and nonresidents are going to apply for hunts worth the drive. With residents pulling out of the big hunts to focus on the mid-tier or less (better draw odds) it would increase the odds for the nonresidents. Just a hunch.

Limiting us to 3 hunts per category wouldn't increase the odds enough to make any real-life difference on drawing odds. It would make drawing day way less exciting because you have less entries.

It's so much fun when the September 15th deadline passes and I have about 50 applications pending. I applied for 140 hunts last year and drew 6. Pay to play baby!

That's not true. Tons of people sign up for a lot of hunts. It's $3 a piece, you don't have to pay a lot to play

Limiting to 3 per category would make a noticeable difference. Not huge. But every little bit helps.

What 6 hunts did you win last year? Some hunts you can almost always win. I win a Trinity River NWR every year since they started in the draw. Usually two of them plus a squirrel hunt out there. Laguna Atascosa Archery hunt I win at least every 2 out 3 years. Muzzleloader hunts are usually pretty easy to win. It sounds like you care more that you win than about what you win.

For the highly desired hunts, making the odds 10 times better won't make a real life difference. I guarantee that limiting applicants to 3 choices will not improve odds by 10%. The best thing the State can do is leave the price cheap and let people apply for all of them. There's already some hunts that are "easy" to draw. Limiting applications won't change that and won't help much with the hard ones.

When I apply I care about winning and trying to win decent hunts too. There's quite a few I don't apply for like Refuge archery and muzzleloader. I don't apply for a lot of the deer hunts that are in East Texas.

I lied, I only drew 5 in 2022.
All the hunts I won were difficult to draw if you look at the statistics:
Laguna Atascosa Exotic
Richland Creek Fentress Waterfowl
Furbearer Predator at Richland Creek
Neches River Antlerless Spike
Hagerman Feral Hog had about 25% odds which be one of the "easier" hunts to draw.

In 2021 I only applied for 75 and drew
Chaparral Archery
Hagerman Archery
Taylor Lakes Waterfowl

Looking forward to another year of suspense.

How was Taylor Lakes?

The kids and I have won something about every other year. Disappointed when they aged out with almost double-digit points in some categories and didn't get drawn. 2 of them got to hunt the Chap and killed their biggest bucks to date.

I do think there could be more opportunity on these big WMAs, I know limiting traffic is a big deal to some and shots every week or weekend impacts animals but the opportunity for hunters is part of the mission and allowing a few more hunters or a few more dates, would still be "limited," maybe only 20-50 more opportunities.

Texas can run their draw however they see fit, but let's not act like the Texas public drawn hunts are anything like other western states. It's a different experience and while fun, it's very structured and restrictive (maybe excluding the desert bighorn hunt)

Although I could see the allure of Wyoming limiting NR's to a three day weekend hunt all while being babysat by a WY G&F employee.