I love it when people read stuff, without actually reading it.

In my second paragraph or sentence, I said real clearly, that no time frame was given on when those bucks were seen. I don't know how many times HT and his family were actually able to go to that place hunting. It may have been only one or two times over the season, pretty sure it wasn't everyday.

We are seeing way too many game cam pictures on here from areas where the deer have gone completely nocturnal in East Texas.

As I said earlier, this is a circular arguement that none of us are ever going to agree on 100%. People that are mainly interested in antler size like it and support it, people that just want to shoot a deer on maybe the one time they get to go hunting in a season, don't like it. People that have the option, either all season or at sometime during the season, to shoot a doe, aren't going to have as much problem with it as those that can't shoot a doe, period.

If hunters and TP&W want to really change the dynamics of the deer herd, then shorten the general season to 30 days, and allow one buck and 2 does state wide. Do that for 3 to 5 years and see what the deer herd looks like.

That would be pretty impractical wouldn't it?? No matter what management scheme the state comes up with, it will affect a certain segment of the hunting population negatively, fact of life.

This is a subject that we all view differently, depending on how it affects us. I wonder if it would be such a big deal if deer didn't have antlers, say instead of antlers, they had horns like a Nilgai. With all the emphasis that has been placed on antler size over the past 10 to 15 years, there will always be people that see the antler restrictions, as just a scheme to make money and cut people out of the hunting field, because they can't afford the price. JMO and NOBODY IS GOING TO CHANGE MY DAMN MIND,DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY.

Just FYI,
If you have 100 acres or more that you own or lease. You can apply for LAMPS permits to take does off your hunting place. This might help fill up your freezer a little better. IF you have less than a 100 acres maybe there is a way you can go in with your neighbors and combine land to equal or surpass the 100 acre mark. Just a thought not sure if it would fly or not.

Yeah, my dad and I were involved in the LAMPS program back when we leased in East Texas years ago. We have 150 acres now and I have brought that up, but my FIL hasn't done anything about it. He sure needs to. Still one doe tag ain't gonna be much help whan there are 7 of us that have access to hunt it. We can eat one doe in a sitting. LMAO

My biggest concern about this whole thing is not as much myself as it is people that do not have access to other places to hunt. How long is it gonna be before they decided it ain't worth goin anymore? I spent many many years huntin in East Texas as a kid tryin to shoot a buck back when there were no restrictions. Believe me I got way too frustrated. fortunately I never got frustrated enough to quit goin, but I do kow others that have.

Maybe it's all my fault I am like I am. I want to get at least one deer a year and if I don't I am a real po'ed SOB for the next year. Just ask my wife. I didn't get one last year. A bad shot and a couple of missed opportunities caused it so I blame nothing but myself. I just don't really want to change my thinking just because most everyone else thinks different than I do.

I have a buck on the wall. I shot him back in 04 almost 1 year to the day that they told my wife while I was sitting in a hospital room that they didn't know if I was gonna make it or not. Most people wouldn't have shot him. He is more special to me due to circumstances than any 180 class buck ever would be. chc has told me more than once that no one but you knows exactly how you feel when you pull the trigger on a deer and makea clean kill. I know this is the truth. I just don't like that it is regulated even more to keep people from having this feeling. Deer hunting in some areas is tough enough without someone making more regulations. If you want to shoot a trophy deer than fine. Go right ahead and do it. I think it's wonderful that you have the patience and dicipline to do just that. So I still cannot see why anyone would not want me to have the opportunity just to enjoy going out in the woods and shooting a deer.

They say in 3 to 4 years that the deer population and size of the bucks will get better. I still have access to the place I hunted as a kid. All total there is close to 1000 acres in it. For years and years we never even saw a buck during deer season. So technically there should have been more bucks and bigger bucks right??????? We went for a 8 year period where no deer were killed off that place at all.

Hell I have probably gone way off topic with all of this. I am headed out to my East Texas place on Saturday to fill feeders and see if anything is coming to them. And I will hunt there a time or two this season so we can all be there as a family. But the hopes of shooting a deer have dimished greatly with the new restrictions.

I am against antler restrictions, always have been always will be. I just wanna go enjoy being out there with my frinds and family and shoot a deer and see my 8 year old nephew shoot his first deer............Is that too much to ask?????????

M16,I agree with you. When I meant "buy" some horns I was refering to a package hunt.On part of my place we lease about 400 acres. We require pics of the kills and its worked out fine so far if--- they are being honest!! We are taking them for their word. Some one else said the state tells you what you can and can't shoot which is absolutely correct and it needs to be this way. Deer, not horn management, is vital to any lease or outfitted ranch. Land owners have to monitor this and take responsibility for what is taken off the lease or premises. I may stir up some stuff here on this question!! In response to the ones who hunt east Texas where there are "no" bucks and no doe permits. Why not try another area better suited to your taste? I don't think I would enjoy hunting where there was no deer traffic. Just an observation and some input for conversation. Benny

I don't think you are really stirring things up with that observation. From what I have seen about the issue, it falls down to either, A, people hunting public land or timber company land, or, B, people hunting land they own, or smaller, cheaper leases.

Imagine instead of breaking the state up into 4 or more zones, break it up into 3, West of the I-35 corridor and North of I-10, East of the I-35 corridor and North of I-10, and everything South of I-10.

After doing that, take each region, and look at both the population of humans in each, the estimated deer population in each, the average amount of acreage per lease, and the average cost per gun per lease.

Why would someone that owns land or has access for a nominal fee, want to try and go somewhere else and pay real money just to shoot a deer. Also, once you go South of 10 and west of 35, Public land gets pretty scarce.

Hted, This is making light of the situation but I used to say this befor I acquired my place and I was working for a living and living week to week-- I've lost a lot of good jobs for deer hunting. I don't know how I did it but somehow I would scrape up the money for my lease every year. When I would be sitting up in the stand I would look all around and see the beauty that I was so fortunate to be a part of and say to myself--self there are a lot of people that would love to be sitting here right now that don't have the priviledge of hunting in their country. Benny

I understand what you are saying...............however.........WE OWN THE LAND OUTRIGHT. There is no land payment every month. We have the title. All we pay is the taxes on it. Why would we go buy another place when we already own one. Sure I lease another place.......but there is no way that my BIL can afford a lease. He shouldn't have to. He shopuld be able to let his 8 year old son go out and shoot his first deer. Without having to tell him" Sorry son, because some people think that big bucks are the most important thing about deer hunting you cannot shoot that deer that is standing in front of you."

Hted, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question about the hunters not getting legal size deer in their area. I have only hunted in east Texas once in my life and I don't know if I can answer it. I'm 64 years young and I can remember when I was in my twenties on my lease in Marble Falls and we had a drought and the deer weren't able to get the proper nutrition from plant life. We had never heard of and couldn't afford to feed year round muchless feed protein. So, we passed on a lot of deer. I remember the horns fell off real early in the season.The answer I might have would be start concentrating onfeeding year round and in the latter months before season hit them heavy with protein. Manage and lay back till they mature. Only a suggestion for you guys in east Texas. Benny

I understand weveryones point. Really I do. Now agreeing with it is a whole nother thing. Bottom line is I don't like it, never have, never will. I will just spend most of my time at my other lease and hoope like hell a legal buck comes out for someone in my family to shoot on our East Texas property.

I hunt mostly in Dewitt county. I have family land there. It ust to be a 1 buck only county in general season and 2 doe during archery. Last year the 13inch rule was put in place but we got a 2nd buck tag for spike or unbranched. I am not sure if it was the 13 inch rule or not but I saw more bucks last year than I ever have.
I feel as though the new law has been put in place to help the hunter age the deer and not act as a means to grow trophy deer all over the state. I am glad to see the 13 inch rule in my county to help the young bucks get old enough to reach sexual maturity and to help my keep my neighbors from shooting the younger deer.

I was on the fence about the law last year when it was put into effect at my place due to the chance I might not see a buck wide enough to take. It made me hunt a little harder and do some more pre season scouting. I enjoyed hunting more last year because I watched more deer waiting for that buck that meet the requirments. Finally after a month into the season the right buck presented it self.

I know this may not be the case for everyone this year because the law will effect everyone differently but just try to have an open mind about it and try to look at different tactics to use this year. I did last year and feel it has made me a better hunter.

I don't think in the long run the antler restrictions will make a difference for the better. The TPWD flyer I saw today allows a hunter to take 2 spikes if he wants too. Some meat hunters will do just that and are not going to wait for a 13" to walk by. The trophy hunter will wait for what he considers a trophy even if it means not shooting a deer at all. Over time I think a larger number of spikes will be shot and that will mean fewer good deer in years to come.

"Why Have they made it to where the DOES are left out of balance."

Is their a set standard on buck to doe ratio's?
What is a natural buck to doe ratio?

On my place, without doing a head count, my buck to doe ratio runs between 5-1 and 6-1, on other properties in this area it can run as high as 9-1 or 12-1. On another place that a friend of mine owns he keeps his to about 2-1 or 3-1. Now when you take into consideration the average population of 10-15 deer per section ( 1 square mile )for this area. It wouldn't be surprising at all to have a 300 to 400 acre lease with as few as 1-2 bucks and and only a handful of doe's.

I'm not sure we or anybody else knows what a true natural ratio should be.

Nope, the problem is that people like you cannot understand that some people just want to go out and shoot a deer.

Okay, I hope you are meaning that you have 5 or 6 does to every buck. If not at least that old gal won't get lonely.

From all I have heard and read, for whitetails, the best ratio is 1 to 1, in some areas they try for 1.5 or 2 to 1.

With Mule Deer and Elk the ratios are better at 1 to 3 or 4.

LOL, OK i should have been a little more specific.


I know allot of ranch's try to keep it at a 1-1 or a 1-2 ratio, those are manipulated populations maintained for maximum buck out-put and maximum revenue. But what is a natural herds buck to doe ratio?

[quote
Thats the problem with that attitude your going to shoot it any way.

---

Why shouldn't he shoot? Because it doesn't meet
your trophy goal? Let it walk so there will be
more antlers out there for trophy hunters?
I've tried to stay out of this go-round but
what the heck, it's all the same BS, may as
well plop mine out there.
Management of wildlife based on certain
hunters trophy goals and definitions is
a sorry state of affairs. "Wait a few
years and see how much bigger the racks
are". Why don't you wait a few years, save
some $$ and go to a dedicated trophy ranch
and get your ego boosting dead animal wall
mount?
And as for "the state must regulate deer
hunting" yes, regulating the number of deer
one hunter kills is necessary (kind'a goes
without saying don't ya think) but basing
regulations on rack size and using game
wardens time and energy to enforce (meanwhile
they're already understaffed) is asinine.
I'm under the impression that there are more
whitetail deer in TX, and for that matter the
rest of this continent, than at any other time
in recorded history. Now "they must be protected"
is being used as a means of keeping ol' neighbor
Joe from shooting a deer someone else wants to
grow bigger. This is my 2nd rant of the day
(on the internet anyway) and they are somewhat
related, so I guess I should back off a while.

Y'all have a good one
PK

If a person could find a "Natural Herd", of Whitetail deer, the ratio should fall in the 1 to 1 to 1 to 3 or 4 range.

The problem is, that whitetails, are not a really good, "Wilderness" species. In a naturally occuring setting, whitetail numbers are usually fairly low. If a person will study the history of the U.S., from the landing of the pilgrims till now, there is a direct correlation between the expansion and increase of whitetail deer numbers and range, and the movement of the settlers of the country.

Whitetails are "Edge" animals, and as such, benefit from human manipulation of the habitat. Mule Deer don't really benefit from human manipulation.

seriously, I will give you a reason why you shouldnt shoot a 4 pt or a 6 pt thats 1.5 or 2.5 yrs old. Who cares that they might be a solid 10 at 4.5, by letting them get to 4.5 they get to breed! If you shoot 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer, they dont get to breed, thus your deer population doesnt grow. Remeber deer breed at 1:1, so for every doe you get a buck. Thats whitetail biology. So if you shoot all the young bucks, you will get overrun with does. Then all you have to shoot is does, so thats what every one shoots. After a while, this is what you have in these counties with antler restrictions. The state could care less how big of a deer you shoot, but the want you to shoot deer, if there are none to shoot, they lose money. They dont make money if you shoot a 150 class or a 90 class, they just want there to be deer period.

Now should a child be able to shoot whatever? Yes, but look at how many people abuse the youth weekend, so if you set a provision that youth can kill and adults cant, it wont do any good. So it has to be for everybody if you want it to work.

Your strategy would have merit if the deer herd in the state was at the goal of 1 to 1, it ain't. I have a feeling, without trying to dig up the facts and figures, that the average for the state is closer to a 1 to 5 or 6, maybe even higher, buck to does ratio. Bucks don't automatically start breeding at 4.5. They are like goats and will start trying to breed at 6 months old, if given the chance. It has also been proven over and over, that your bigger bucks are not always the more aggressive breeders, and that agressive spikes and what most folks would consider culls at 2.5, can do more breeding than the older and better bucks.

If hunting, natural mortality, and road kills were making such a hard impact on the deer in Texas or the U.S. for that matter, the herd would not be continuing to grow and expand its territory yearly.

Also, if you don't think the state of Texas doesn't make money off of every trophy deer, 130 class and up that is killed, you really need to take a course in the economics of deer hunting and its effect on the economy.

I don't believe any hunter here needs a lesson on
why not to shoot an immature animal. This whole
hi-jacked thread is about a regulation put in place
based on antler size/width.
There is not a shortage of whitetails. In the east
Texas counties recently affected the TPWD has posted
that over 90% of the does get breed each season.
And they are not legal to hunt except in archary
and the special doe days. Sounds like there are
plenty of bucks around to get the job done.

PK