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Naval Gunnery Question
#8752755
12/08/22 02:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
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Just finished watching Flags of our Fathers again. Hadn't seen it since it came out.
In one scene the US Navy is beginning its bombardment of Iwo Jima. I recall thinking the first time I saw it, and again tonight, the ships seemed awfully close to the island.
I know its a movie and the visuals are for dramatic effect and perspective.
But I was wondering, at what distance would the battle wagons like Texas and Arkansas have stood off when firing on the island?
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752763
12/08/22 02:45 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 23,188
Bee'z
The Beedazzler
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The Beedazzler
Joined: Jul 2015
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The big guns were around 13 miles per wiki. That sounds about right honestly
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752783
12/08/22 03:43 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,825
TurkeyHunter
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That’s a really good question. Closest will be the destroyers. They can operate in shallower water and generally could provide a much higher rate of more accurate fire. Generally 5” guns with those. Next would be cruisers operating in a little deeper water with 5” and 8” guns. Good rate of fire and very effective.
Battleship needed/wanted plenty of deep water and room for movement but could operate closer than you might think with their 14” and 16” guns using fewer powder chargers. I believe their max range was using 3 or more powder charges. But they could load fewer propellant charges and be accurate with exploding rounds using less charges. Increase gun elevation, use fewer charges, you could hit relatively close for a big battle wagon.
My details could be a little off because they are from memory but the general idea is correct.
I believe 8” guns on cruisers could also adjust powder charges.
To be determined
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752793
12/08/22 03:54 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,825
TurkeyHunter
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To be determined
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752796
12/08/22 03:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,825
TurkeyHunter
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To be determined
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752802
12/08/22 04:08 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,981
T Bone
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The Texas was one of the older battleships off the coast of Normandy for D-Day, if my memory serves. The captain made the decision to come in close (to the point that it risked running aground) to provide fire support for the landing crafts and troops when the invasion stalled.
Neptune, by Craig L. Symonds is a great audiobook-
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: T Bone]
#8752808
12/08/22 04:23 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,825
TurkeyHunter
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The Texas was one of the older battleships off the coast of Normandy for D-Day, if my memory serves. The captain made the decision to come in close (to the point that it risked running aground) to provide fire support for the landing crafts and troops when the invasion stalled.
Neptune, by Craig L. Symonds is a great audiobook- In the article picture you can see the USS Texas receiving shore battery file. The article is good as well. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/uss-texas-battery-hamburg-1944
To be determined
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752844
12/08/22 11:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 274
LarryT
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This is wild. Mush respect for "The Greatest Generation" I've always wished we still had the battleships active. Watching film footage of a battleship firing in no way gives you any clue to the true nature of the effect of a main battery salvo. Even one turret firing causes minor damage aboard a ship. Toilets crack, the deck ignites, and woe to anyone forward of a safe zone. If they survive the blast concussion, bones shatter, eardrums rupture, and heads ache long afterwards. The air becomes thick with yellowish-brown smoke from each salvo as men rush to swab the deck before the next round in an effort to prevent fires. It requires the explosion of several hundred pounds of gunpowder, hand loaded into the breach of each gun to propel a 1,300-pound projectile onto a target miles away. Aboard Texas, the main guns were fired electrically, but loaded manually. A sustained firefight led to coordinated frenzy, as men loaded the guns, swept the decks, and braced for the next round.
LarryT
Simper Fi. Once & Always
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752890
12/08/22 12:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
gramps
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gramps
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768 |
Would be hard to consider deploying BB these day. Can't hid from them like the Turpitz tried to do during WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_TirpitzDrones, missiles, start bomb, even nuclear programable smart torpedoes with range of 6000 KN miles, satellites, and radar. Forbes Contributing writer and Defense Expert Peter Suciu explains why the era of the battleships is truly over: For military history buffs, there is no doubt something romantic about the notion of seeing the United States Navy’s “big gun” fast-battleships steaming out to sea again. It is true that all four of the warships of the Iowa-class, the largest battleships ever built in the United States, were preserved intact so that they’d be able to return to duty. There is occasionally still talk about seeing them back in active service. However, such dreams aren’t like to come true – and not just because smaller and more mobile guided-missile destroyers can do the job of shore bombardment better. While described as “fast battleships,” the Navy’s warships would require massive crews and would simply be inviting targets in the era of hypersonic missiles and stealth aircraft. It would likely require a significant makeover, and the United States currently lacks the naval facilities to even take on such a refit. Preserving History Today, eight retired U.S. Navy battleships have been maintained as some of the nation’s most impressive floating museums. In addition to the role each played in service of the country in wartime, the retired vessels share a similar story – the elements have taken a drastic toll on those once majestic vessels. The USS Texas is currently undergoing repairs as her hull is leaking, while significant restorations were required to save the South Dakota-class USS Massachusetts. A special cofferdam was even required to preserve USS North Carolina, another South Dakota-class battleship built just prior to United States’ entry into World War II. The four Iowa-class battlewagons are generally considered to be in better condition, but USS New Jersey recently underwent the first major replacement of its wood decks in decades. Time continues to be the greatest enemy these warships have faced, and with each passing year, any effort to return them would be a massive undertaking. There is another issue that would likely keep any Iowa-class battleships from seeing them returned to service – a lack of spare parts. Warships require specialized components and to maintain the Battleship New Jersey museum, volunteers have had to head over to the nearby Inactive Fleet at the Philadelphia Navy Yard to scavenge what they can find. More: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/w...mp;cvid=480d448edf854a59a637c38949e2546f
�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#8752909
12/08/22 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,767
Paluxy
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The Texas was one of the older battleships off the coast of Normandy for D-Day, if my memory serves. The captain made the decision to come in close (to the point that it risked running aground) to provide fire support for the landing crafts and troops when the invasion stalled.
Neptune, by Craig L. Symonds is a great audiobook- In the article picture you can see the USS Texas receiving shore battery file. The article is good as well. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/uss-texas-battery-hamburg-1944Great story!
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752919
12/08/22 01:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
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gramps
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War Ships are limited in their ability to get close in due to their draft requirements of 20 foot+ for light destroyers, 30+ for Cruiser, and 35+ for BB. They have to have 5+ foot of clearance due to the volume of intake of sea water for cooling of steam turbine water, evaporator for fresh water, AC, and axillary engine & generator cooling. Around most Volcanic Island the water is pretty deep close to shore. Normandy not so.
The 16 inch 50 cal guns of the BB could shoot a 1900# HE 24 miles or an AP 2700# 21 miles using 6x 60# bags of powder per shot.
The IJN had 2 super battleships with 18 inch gun. Range of 27 miles. Sank by hits from our dive bomber and torpedo bombers
�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752932
12/08/22 01:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
gramps
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gramps
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768 |
A short and good Pictorial History of most Battle Ships of Pearl Harbour. Even the Oklahoma (above) is listed Battleship Row: The Nine American Vessels Targeted During the Attack on Pearl Harbor Pearl Harbour
�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8752971
12/08/22 01:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609
SapperTitan
Taking Requests
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Taking Requests
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Posts: 29,609 |
I would think they would want to be as close as possible while also staying out of enemy indirect fire range. Closer would probably equate to more rounds on target but you don’t want to be close enough for the enemy to hit you.
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#8753015
12/08/22 02:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,972
Dry Fire
Extreme Tracker
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Posts: 4,972 |
After D Day, Texas was forced to return to England to repair and re arm. She returned back on station on June 11th. On June 15th, USS Texas was given a fire mission that was beyond the range of her guns. The captain ordered the starboard sided to be flooded so the ship would list at 2 degrees to enable the port side to hit its assigned target. Link
coffee spelled backwards is eeffoc. I don't give eeffoc until I have my morning coffee.
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8753043
12/08/22 03:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
gramps
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gramps
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768 |
Unbelievable help the citizens of USA provided in all ways for Vets trying to get back home.
�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8753144
12/08/22 04:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,825
TurkeyHunter
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To be determined
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8753148
12/08/22 04:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 394
jeffnsa
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The current 5 inch guns on cruisers can shoot 8 miles and be within 25yd of accuracy. the 16 inch on battle ships where 2300lbs and 23 miles. I never got to shoot the 16in gun but i got to see a broad side salvo from half a mile away.
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8753931
12/09/22 02:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 716
upsslim
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Oct 2013
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When I was at Phan Rang Vietnam a battleship was off the coast firing right over the base. We were told it was 10 miles off the coast. When the projectile went over it sounded just like the rockets that the VC shot at us. We would hear it going over then hear the boom from it being shot and then hear the boom when it hit. The first time I heard it I was looking for a bunker. I thought we were under attack. I can't imagine being on the ship when they fired.
East Texas Patriot Guard Rider Flag Captain
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Dry Fire]
#8754369
12/10/22 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 8,152
Homer Jay
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After D Day, Texas was forced to return to England to repair and re arm. She returned back on station on June 11th. On June 15th, USS Texas was given a fire mission that was beyond the range of her guns. The captain ordered the starboard sided to be flooded so the ship would list at 2 degrees to enable the port side to hit its assigned target. LinkThe torpedo blisters on that side were flooded.
"Like a slice of fried gold!"
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8754556
12/10/22 03:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,029
huntingbig8
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,029 |
Cool post and discussion, no matter which topic is brought up and discussed about The Greatest Generation I stand in awe of the young men and what they did. As a father of 3 young men I can't imagine the sacrifices made and the incredible feats they pulled off in every branch of the service.
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Re: Naval Gunnery Question
[Re: Homer Jay]
#8754666
12/10/22 06:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,725
tigger
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Thanks for all these post
Tigger If it isn't white it is not a birddog.
KC Lying is lying. Don't bitch about one doing it and condone another. That's called hypocrisy. _________________
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