Looking at options for my first night time optic for hogs and predators and debating if I should go with a night vision set up or thermal. I'd be looking at something like a Sightmark Wraith 4K Mini with a upgraded IR light or something like a used AGM Rattler 35 or Bering Hogster 35. For you guys who have used both types of optics and could only have one which would it be and why? I am on a budget so keeping cost down is a huge plus but I want to get something that I won't regret. I'll be picking them off at my feeder down the sendero which is about 100 yards away but would like to have the capabilities to reach out to 200 yards max if possible. Any advice would be much appreciated.

If your budget is keeping you limited to $ 1k then go with the wraith 4k max (not the mini).

You can’t get a used rattler or Hogster for $ 1k so that would be exceeding your budget and that could be a situation that leads to being unhappy in the long run.

Nothing wrong with digital technology- it’s VERY effective and you’ll ID better with it at 200 yards then you would with entry level thermals.

Best of luck

I get that you are on a budget. The reality is that you can afford either, apparently, but I am guessing the thermal will be more of a stretch for you. Got it.

The biggest problems with night vision and digital night vision are that animals hide much easier in high grass and thicker vegetation for NV and DNV than they do for thermal. With NV and DNV, the units work by amplifying light. That means light must illuminate the target and be reflect back at the scope for you to see the animal. I will give you an example with pets. Our cat gets out from time to time and likes to hide in the neighbor's bushes. If I try to find it with NV or DNV, I am reliant on there being enough light getting through the canopy of the bushes to illuminate my cat and to be reflected back out through the gaps in the foliage such that I will recognize that there is a cat in the bushes. That doesn't happen. So I add an IR illuminator and that really lights up the area, but it makes the front of the bushes MUCH brighter than anything behind or inside them. So the cat is still invisible. Next, I get out my thermal. It does not rely upon light. It works off heat energy that it sees as light. I peer into the bushes and through the various gaps in the bushes, I see a glowing light moving around and after looking for a minute or so, can see that it is cat-sized. That is probably my cat. Cool.

The other major problem with NV and DNV are that camo works against them. I animal camo'd that is hard to see with the naked eye will be hard to see with NV or DNV. Why? Camo is an optical phenomenon. NV and DNV work on optical viewing. So the camo is still effective.

Of course, with NV, you MUST protect the sensor from bright light. DNV is much friendlier for day use than NV.

The advantages of both are that when you do see an animal clearly, it is often much more identifiable than with thermal. With thermal, you may see 2 coyotes. With NV or DNV, you may be able to distinguish the two coyotes from one another based on subtle differences in their coats. That won't be an option with thermal.

The main downfalls of thermal are that the images, particularly at distance, are just silhouettes and often void of detail. It may be hard to tell the difference between a coyote and a spitz dog. While thermal is not susceptible to camo per se, it does suffer from temp camo. For example, it may be hard to make out most details or even the outline of a hog that comes out of the water right after a rain storm when everything is well. Most of the hog's coat and outsides will be wet and cooling just like everything else in the environment and the hog can be harder to see when conditions are like this.

The main advantages of thermal is that because thermal sees heat, it is like animals are radiating light. You put an animal in the bushes and on thermal, it is effectively glowing. In a crop field, you can often readily see the glowing backs and ear tips of hogs that are almost shorter than the crop. If these are dark (black or brown) hogs and the crop is dark green, you may not even be able to pick them out using NV or DNV. This glow, while maybe not identifiable, will be discernible on thermal long before animals will be able to be seen with NV or DNV.

If you are going to have only one scope (and two is a better combo), then I would argue that a thermal rifle scope is the way to go. HOWEVER, you would be better off running 2 scopes, a scanner/spotter/handheld and a weapon scope. What you will find is that if you run only one scope on your rifle, you will be waving your rifle all around trying to see stuff. First, it is something of a rules safety violation to be pointing your rifle all over the place, covering targets you don't want to shoot. Second, comparatively speaking, that makes your rifle scope a really cumbersome and heavy spotting scope. You will quickly grow tired of this endeavor unless maybe you are sitting in a box blind watching a feeder at the end of a sendero...where basically you can place your rifle on bags and just peek in your scope to see your target area and whether or not hogs are under your feeder.

So, if I was you and on a budget like that, I would likely go with the Wraith for a rifle scope and then pick up lower end thermal. You may not be able to identify all your targets with the thermal (though you will get better with time), but you can at least see when there are animals present and then try to identify them specifically with your rifle scope. For example, say you are hunting a 200 acre square field. With NV or DNV on a dark night, you won't be spotting many animals out 300 or 500 yards away. You may try your illuminator and it may help, some, but chances are what you are struggling to see with NV or DNV will be readily apparent with thermal, even if you can't identify it. At least you will know there are animals present and you can decide based on the motion you are seeing as to whether or not they would be worthwhile to investigate further. With NV or DNV, you would have to move to several locations in the field in order to scan the entirety of it. With thermal, you could scan the entire field from a single location, know if animals are there or not, and then decide what to do.

Where thermal actually sucks is for navigation purposes. Unless you don't have windows, you can't drive your vehicle around your property using thermal because thermal cannot see through regular glass. NV and DNV see through glass just fine. Or, you can do what I try to do, sometimes, and hang my head out the window and drive with thermal, but it is awkward.

You don't want to buy something you will regret? Don't buy ATN or FLIR.

Just a quick note, quality Gen III NV costs about the same as thermal. Unless you have a particular task in mind that is better suited for NV than thermal, you will get more bang for your buck from thermal when it comes to hunting.

Sitting in a blind, shooting at a feeder at a known distance at 200 yds max, the wraith will easily accommodate the task and is well within your budget. If that will be the overwhelming majority of your nighttime hunting, I wouldn’t consider thermal. 99.9% of my hunting after dark is much the same scenario you describe and I use the wraith. I have done spot and stalk through large properties with large pastures, it works but definitely not as useful there as a thermal is. Only thing to consider is trailing the animal after the shot, if needed. The thermal could come in handy, NV not so much. Me personally, I don’t care if they die where they stand or 300 yds away, as long as they stop tearing up my fields.

There's no question thermal is the better route for night time hunting. But the Wraith will work fine when hunting from a stand at night from 100 yards. The only issue we see with the Wraith, or any night vision, is when you shoot, you have a cloud of smoke from the muzzle (even when shooting suppressed). This smoke will fill up the air in front of the rifle/scope, and the night vision will see this smoke and make the screen very bright from the smoke. This will impede your follow up shots and get worse after each shot. You don't have this issue with thermal. Plus, you can see ALL the critters very well with thermal. Yes, it's more cost, but well worth it, IMO.

Thank you for the replies. If I could get a used AGM Rattler 35 in great condition in the $1600 - $1800 range would that be a great deal?

Lots of good advice given above , sounds like you really want thermal…

So here is my next bit of advice, understand the warranty of what you’re buying used. Read the fine print , ask dealers if they’ll support you post sale (if you buy a demo or used from a dealer).

AGMs warranty page and what is covered is pretty slippery - I can tell you they only warranty the original buyer , not to say they haven’t shown grace to people before but don’t expect it , trust what you read on the manufactures sight

The cost of a used unit that may have issues that weren’t disclosed can really sour the joy of what you’re trying to do.

Is is worth another 2-300 dollars to buy new from a dealer, I’d say so…

Thanks. I honestly don't know what I want since I don't have much experience with night vision and zero with thermal. I'm just trying to make the best purchase I can at the moment. As for warranty, I called AGM and they said the warranty is transferable as long as it's less than 3 years since it was purchased new. I'm still weighing my options and appreciate all the great advice.

Interesting discussion. Along with the OP, I learned a few things. And, I have a question. Why the Wraith over the Wraith Mini?

I'd like to know this as well. I thought the mini had a better FOV.

I think the wraith mini takes external batteries and the wraith has internal batteries, I have 2 of the wraiths. So for the wraith min you have cr123s for the scope and the IR. Wraith cr123s for just the IR

If you’re wanting to stretch the shots to 200 yards you’d want the higher base magnification of the 4k max as opposed to using digital zoom

You can’t have both wide field of view and high native zoom so really it’s a choice between these , I’ve hunted the 4k max in a seated blind inside of 100 yards , it works well.

4k max is 3x native mag with 31.5 ft of field of view at 100 yards

4k mini is sold in 2 versions (I HADNT REALIZED THIS EARLIER)

2x native mag with 40 ft field of view at 100 yards

4x native mag with 21 ft FOV at 100 yards

So I suppose the 4k MAX is the middle of the road option ….


Switching back to AGM thermal: IM NOT SAYING WHOEVER YOU TALKED TO WAS LYING BUT IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T LINEUP WITH AGM'S WARRANTY AND THEY CAN DENY ANY CLAIM ON A USED SCOPE AT ANY TIME - PLUS YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW IF THE ORIGINAL OWNER REGISTERED IT WITHIN 30 DAYS OF ORIGINAL PURCHASE

Here is their web page warranty info :

Product Warranty Registration :

https://www.agmglobalvision.com/product-warranty-registration

Thanks and after reading warranty info you posted I can see where you are coming from. That does change things now because "if" I was to buy this used thermal I would definitely want to still be able to use the remaining warranty if needed.

The more I've been researching it seems like a better option for the type of hunting I'll be doing is going with a some sort of handheld thermal for scanning/spotting and a Sightmark Wraith 4K Max for shooting. I feel like the AGM Rattler 35 is a great entry level thermal scope but will be better suited for shooting under 100 yards. I was under the impression that since it has the zoom feature it would be out to 200 yards but after reading more it's best to use it at the lowest magnification setting.

Does this seem like a better option to go with than just having one dedicated NV optic?

Yes , just be sure to get a 384 res spotter (monocular) avoid the 256 res ones. There are some from China for $ 1200 which wasn’t the case 4-5 years ago.

So 1200 for a monocular and about 850 for wraith with upgraded IR, you should be golden for your first foray into NV

That's exactly what did, Digital NV for the rifle sight and thermal monocular for spotting. I started out with the Wraith HD 4-32X50. Its a great NV scope but the field of view is really small and its REALLY bulky and heavy. I put it on a AR-10 which is a heavy beast on its own and it was just too much. I decided to go with the Wraith Mini 4K its smaller and lighter and the field of view is larger which I like. 16X magnification is plenty good to shoot 300 yard plus in daylight. With the factory illuminator 150-200 yards is not a problem at night. You can stretch that a bit with a higher output illuminator. Other improvements over the Wraith HD are flip up objective cover, video recording has audio and front focus lever is handy. Personally, I don't see a much advantage in clarity of the 4K over the HD but that's just me. If size/weight is not a problem for you, the Wraith HD works just as well and will save you a couple hundred bucks. I would go with the 2-16X for the larger field of view.

The thermal Monocular I went with is the AGM Taipan TM19-384. It has several advantages over Digital NV but Digital NV does have a few advantages. The TM19-384 can detect deer sized animals 500+ yards and can identify deer from hogs at about 350-400 yds with some experience. Digital NV is no good in nighttime fog, mist or rain, too much IR refection and you can't see anything. Thermal is effected by fog/mist to a much lesser extent and can still be used. Thermal is much better at seeing animals in the grass/brush. Digital NV IR blooms if there is any tall grass, brush or limbs between you and your target obstructing your view. My experience is the thermal doesn't work as well in hot weather as the animals and their surroundings are close to the same temperature, advantage Digital NV. The Wraith is a very good daytime sight with reasonably good resolution to judge antler size and width, etc. Thermal is not as good in the daylight, advantage Digital NV.

I like having both technologies.

I started with the Wraith 4K Max and recently upgraded to thermal. The Wraith is pretty nice, just heavy, and you have to deal with the IR light. So far I'm liking the Thermal. You'll have to upgrade the IR light if you want to get much out past 100-150 yards. I went with the Pulsar Talios for my thermal so it's entry level, but it's really nice. 2.5X base magnification but has PiP which will zoom in where your cross hairs are while still letting you see with a wider field of view. Cool feature.

I'd call Jason at Outdoor Legacy and pick his brain on your options at your budget. He's a straight shooter who has a ton of time behind every product he sells.

Thanks fellas. I'm not too worried about weight due to most of the time I will have the rifle set up on a BOG Death Grip Tripod. I'm torn between the 4K Mini and 4K Max. My plans are to use my AR chambered in 6.8 SPC as my hog hunting rifle which I'm sure the Mini would be great on. But if I plan to do some deer hunting with the optic on my AR10 then I would want more magnification.

As you zoom in on the 4K does the picture stay clear like a normal glass scope? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be shooting past 300 yards during the day time but I do want a good view for shot placement on a deer.

The AGM Taipan TM19-384 was the thermal I was looking at last night and seems like it would be everything I need for night time spotting.

These are from the 4k mini 2x. Fence and deer are both at 100 yards. I see no reason at all to buy the full size 4k. They both run on the same batteries and have the ability to run external battery packs.

The only real issue being a negative with the wraith is if you have any brush between you and the feeder, you may bounce your illuminator light off of it causing it to wash out your picture slightly. Otherwise, it does a pretty amazing job.

What I have learned so far with mine is if there are game animals you absolutely will see them through the scope, but if you are scanning in a pasture you will see things that make you think you see game that are just bushes etc. With thermal you absolutely would be able to tell the difference.

No, resolution is reduced as you zoom in just like a digital camera. There is a dramatic reduction from 4X to 32X on the Wraith HD not so sure about the 4-32 4K. My opinion is 32X is too much and you may use it for targets but will probably never use it in the field. I do use 16X on my Mini 4k in the field, resolution is not as good as 2X but is usable at 16X. I can easily hit 8 inch steel plates at 300 yds and beyond using the Mini in daylight. I'm sure I could hit them at night using my upgraded illuminator but haven't tried it yet.

About to finally pull the trigger on a Wraith 4K. Still debating on going with the 4K Max for $509 or 4K Mini for $599. Both on sale at the moment. Any reason to spend more for the Mini? Majority of shooting will most likely be under 250 yards but want to have good positive ID for shot placement when needed.

Edit: Just purchased the 4K Max for $509.00. Will upgrade to e better IR light.

Was that the Amazon deal?

Yes.

Knowing what I know now, if I was just now getting into these technologies on a shoestring budget I would shop for an economical thermal monocular for detection and then scope my rifle with a good DNV unit. I would then save my pennies and plan to ditch the DNV for a good thermal sight.

That is the path many of us took getting into thermal hunting. DNV was the crack gateway drug for it.

This is my plan.