Frontal area of the bullet is a big factor that many people don't consider. I really like bigger bullets. Even if you lose some speed. They work well at most hunting distances.

kinetic energy has never killed a thing and never will lethality solely depends on the size and depth of a wound channel. hydrostatic shock is a lie also. there are things going on but its not static its more hydraulic / the enegy dumped by a bullet is about equal to a hand thrown baseball. typically the larger the bullet the bigger the hole but factor in expanded diameters .

You might enjoy this website:
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/

Everyone looks at muzzle energy and velocity and never considers what the bullet is doing down range or how the construction of the bullet down range performs.

Of course the bullet construction matters a ton but assume you are using the same bullets for each caliber or at least you can choose whatever bullet you want. The caliber is what it is.

Search “ ballistic tip” on any hunting forum and you will be proven wrong

I think those threads are always an interesting read, you want to talk about firm lines drawn in the sand by people!!! I’ve gone full circle on cup and core bullets, Monolithic, partition and now back to cup and core.

Interesting post, I always read these with a lot of interest because I want to anchor an animal where it is standing when I pull the trigger and these threads are informative. I've posted this cut away before. When I started putting a .308, 165 gr. SST Bullet at my aim point, every deer since seemed to be dead on it's feet and folded up right there. If it's not kinetic energy to the CNS and hydrostatic shock to the circulatory system that is killing them, what is? Definitely not bleeding out internally (I seldom get an exit wound), there's no laying on the ground thrashing about, just nothing, dead immediately. I think we all know what kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock is as it relates to this discussion. IMO, this is what is killing the deer I shoot in this manner.

It could be hydrostatic shock is killing them or hydraulic shock to the spine is keeping them stunned long enough until they die on the spot. Hydrostatic shock shuts down the brain, not the heart, however.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Bleeding out internally has nothing do do with exit wounds except that sometimes exit wounds drain the internal blood, but sometimes they don't.

[quote=vanguard]kinetic energy has never killed a thing and never will lethality solely depends on the size and depth of a wound channel.
So you fall, hit your head on concrete and die. What is the size and depth of the wound channel?

hydrostatic shock is a lie also
Hydrostatic shock is a real thing.

the enegy dumped by a bullet is about equal to a hand thrown baseball.
A 90mph fast ball has about as much energy as a 22 rim fire short.


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I don’t think any one of speed energy bullet construction placement etc is the answer it is some combination of all of them. Once you have enough to get to vitals placement takes over.

I enjoy cleaning and feeding my family with the game we kill so I don’t like blowing them up either. I gravitate towards heavy for caliber bullets at modest velocities. My favorite bullet is a partition they have always done really well for me and mine.

Over the last 50 plus years of hunting deer in Texas with calibers from 17Rem to 45-120 I have found out that the most important element is:
IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOOT THEM WITH , IT IS WHERE YOU HIT THEM !

Over the last 50 plus years of hunting deer in Texas with calibers from 17Rem to 45-120 I have found out that the most important element is:
IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOOT THEM WITH , IT IS WHERE YOU HIT THEM !

Well, I think that maybe different bullets kill in different ways. I shot this bear at about 50 yards with a 30-30. Ran about 20 yards and dropped dead. I found the bullet, It hadn't expanded at all which bothered me a lot because at that close of a range and velocity still near muzzle- it should have expanded. The bullet went right through a rib and yet I could almost reload it. Remington core-lok 170 grs. The bullet path had shredded the top half of the heart. If the bullet didn't expand, probably not much hydrostatic shock (I think).
As a general rule I also have sort of gravitated to larger bore guns and bigger bullets.

One of our shooting buddies is the main trauma ER doc in New Orleans. He sees all kinds of shootings on a daily and regular basis. We've talked about it in length. He says it doesn't matter what caliber you are hit with. It matters what is hit. A well placed shot is game over.

When it comes to rifles, it's the same thing. Certain shot placements work better than others. Certain bullets kill quicker than others. You can cater certain terminal effects depending on which bullet you choose. I've had many DRT shots with a 125 grain bullet in a 300 blk out. I aim low in the chest for the heart for deer. I aim for high shoulder/neck shots on pigs, which are mostly DRT. Most of my shots are DRT, but if they do run, they run only a few yards. Lung shots will generally allow the animal to run much further, but still effective. IMO, shot placement is key. I think energy is less important. How a bullet or projectile kills is the question, i.e. terminal performance.

At 100 yards it doesn't matter. But at 300 yards it does.

I’m interested in this stuff and have been handloading for at least 40 years. I’ve wondered why,with identical loads, heart shots, etc, some animals are DRT and others go a long way.

Are some more tenacious of life, or??

I shot a whitetail in shoulder quartering from front at 30 yards. It ran towards me and in woods, about 50 yards.
I was using a 165 grain Swift Scirocco from a 300 RUM.
Shoulder was shattered, on field dressing the heart and lungs were liquid. Bullet exited.
This deer had extra tenacity, I could not have hit it harder, in a better spot or done more damage.
Next deer shot was with a Blackout, same range and shot placement. DRT.
Ya never know.

This is an interesting thread with some good info.

I think so. And the coyote wants to live more than anything I have killed.

I have made very good vital shots on whitetail and coyotes, and some just take off. They usually won't make it 100 yards. But field dressing the whitetail there is no scientific way they could have made it those hundred yards, but they did.

And I still say it is energy that kills.

If I throw a bullet by hand, and hit someone in the chest with it, they will throw it back. It was moving too slow to do any damage. Mass and velocity. Not worrying about B.C. on the short range shot, because the bullet has retained enough speed to do damage (30-30 for example) If someone wants to be killing elk at 500 yards, B.C. has to be considered, because it literally is the ability to maintain speed.

Hydrostatic shock is absolutely a real thing. The problem with hydrostatic shock is that it is unpredictable. You can double lung shoot two deer of the same size in about the same spot from the same distance using the same load and bullet and get one deer that drops on the spot and one deer that runs 40 yards before collapsing, the first deer dropping due to hydrostatic shock and the second deer dropping due to exsanguination or asphyxiation.

I agree with that, I am certain that hydrostatic shock will destroy both lungs and kill quickly however it seems to me the whole thing depends on the bullet's performance when it hits the animal. If if doesn't expand, then you just have a small diameter bullet going through the animal. Solids are used in Africa on dangerous game because they want penetration and yet those bullets kill. The 30-30 with the 190 grain, at close range that round has broken the shoulders of moose which is pretty incredible. The 190 gr is a Canadian round and as I understand it, it was loaded hot.
To some extend, the bigger bullets might be viewed as more reliable. Once you get into the bullet having to expand on impact, etc. then if the bullet doesn't do its job, not so great.
Then we get into muzzle loading. This guy I know went up to Colorado and shot an elk close range with a traditional muzzle loader using a patched round ball. He kept the ball, Pure lead is used in muzzle loading and this ball had flatten out to the shape of a quarter, that quarter going through both lungs. He said the elk only ran a few yards before it dropped. How do you explain that if you look at the foot pounds of energy?
Finally, as said, why do some animals simply go down quickly and others keep running? Maybe we will never know for sure.
A friend of mine has a 338Win. a step up from the 30-06 and with 250 grain bullets. I was surprised that the recoil was very manageable, Maybe more than a 30-06 but not that much more. It has a longer barrel, the stock possibly heavier- all adding weight and reducing felt recoil. It is on my bucket list.

It’s an odd phenomenon, I have seen it play out unpredictability, and predictably on kills with a certain round and range that is consistent. My 7mm-08 with a 150gr ballistic tip from 100-300 yards seems to be the quickest killer of deer and hogs, I can count on that rifle every time. I hunt with an open sight 45-70 once in a while, and a 500 gr bullet out of it cuts a big hole through the deer, they leave a lot of blood on the trail, and always run a good ways, just like I hit them with a broadhead. I shot a Nilgai with my 300 ultra loaded with a 180gr partition. I actually saw the ripple from the hit run down it’s side like a wave and it folded up in its tracks. I kept the rifle on it for 20 minutes, and went up to it and it was alive, but not able to barely raise its head. The guys with me had killed several of these, most with a 375H&H and always spent hours tracking them, they were mesmerized by what just happened. I have to believe that shock played a role in that case. Another time I shot a Gemsbok at 180 yds with my kids 6.5-300 Wby, heart shot and it folded up, kicked a little and expired. An hour later my son shot a Barashinga at 90 yards with the same rifle, it had 140 gr A-Frames, and that thing took off like it was never hit. We found it 180 yards or so away, and had to put a 357 round to it to finish it. The heart was destroyed by the first shot and there was a nasty exit wound, but it had some Will power. I won’t try to figure this deal out, I just use what knowledge I have gained from experience and use it as need be.

If you crumple a deer in its tracks, pretty sure damage to the spinal cord is involved. This ignorant one here is led to believe hydrostatic shot helps with this.

As others have stated, this is better physics and getting closer to the original question. Once you get past high school/college freshman physics, the focus switches from momentum to the change in momentum (or impulse) when discussing the collision of two objects. I won't go into the math (google it if you are interested) but qualitatively the idea easily explains many of the observations/discussions that have been offered.

Consider bullets with the same momentum. Two bullets of the same diameter, mass, and momentum...the bullet that expands more with transfer more momentum assuming they hit the same type of body part. Two bullets with the same mass, expansion, and momentum....the larger diameter diameter will transfer more momentum assuming they hit the same type of body part. Three identical bullets...the one that strikes bone transfers the most momentum....the one that strikes heavy muscle of heavy organs (liver) transfers the second most momentum...the third goes through light weight organs (lung) transfers the least.

Thus, I like heavy for caliber bullets into the front shoulder.