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 Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: scruboak]
#85832
08/28/06 09:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721 |
Yep. Hard to hook a ladder stand to a mesquite. 
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Txduckman]
#85833
08/29/06 12:53 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794
ILUVBIGBUCKS
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794 |
Quote:
Yep. Hard to hook a ladder stand to a mesquite.
That's what pop-up blinds are made for! 
High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: ILUVBIGBUCKS]
#85834
08/29/06 02:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59
Burntorange Bowhunter
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59 |
I am assuming you are asking "why no Texas"?
Texas is usually third in B&C entries. the last numbers i remember were something like Kansas 27, Illinois 24 and Texas 21. Remember, high fence deer do not count. However you may feel about that subject.......nonetheless Texas would have 50 or more if they counted. take down all of the fences and I am sure we would at least beat 27.
P&Y........the fence thing again must be taken into consideration. Most other states have short gun seasons compared to ours. I used to hunt in SE OKlahoma for example. They had an 8 day gun season(now 15). If you bowhunted you could hunt all of October and December. Therefore these states have more bowhunters out of necessity.
I still call bullshit. we should still have more because we are THE GREAT STATE of TEXAS.
Ahhhh, the best time of year...Longhorn Football and Bowtech body piercing.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: scruboak]
#85835
08/29/06 02:28 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59
Burntorange Bowhunter
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59 |
Scruboak......Cisco....do you know Dusty Ferguson or John Neville???
Ahhhh, the best time of year...Longhorn Football and Bowtech body piercing.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Burntorange Bowhunter]
#85836
08/29/06 02:30 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 801
scruboak
OP
Tracker
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OP
Tracker
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 801 |
nope but I bet my neighbor does or may.
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 Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Burntorange Bowhunter]
#85837
08/29/06 06:09 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
MQ1
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8 |
Ok Here is the B&C top 10 states ,NOW KEEP IN MIND OHIO ONLY HAS A 7 DAY GUN SEASON ,NO RIFLES ,COMPARED TO TEXAS 3 MONTH SEASON. TOP TEN WHITETAIL STATES STATE # OF ENTRIES 1. IOWA 615 2. MINNESOTA 608 3. WISCONSIN 589 4. ILLINOIS 552 5. TEXAS 316 6. MISSOURI 285 7. KENTUCKY 279 8. KANSAS 255 9. OHIO 235 10. MICHIGAN 155 http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_whitetail.asp?area=bgRecords
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: MQ1]
#85838
08/29/06 05:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59
Burntorange Bowhunter
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59 |
I would like to see how these numbers looked if high fence deer were included. Add on 50 or more per year to Texas' total....blowout city. Hell, if they just started adding them from now on we would take over the lead in 5-6 years.
Ahhhh, the best time of year...Longhorn Football and Bowtech body piercing.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Burntorange Bowhunter]
#85839
08/29/06 05:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Taking down them high fences would get our numbers way up but I don't think we could ever catch up to Iowa or Illinois in P&Y. Maybe B&C though. They have the groceries to produce giant racks and big deer. Take away the protein feed in Texas and then only the brush county would be producing giant bucks with some locations in the Panhandle and Cross Timbers mixed in. Plus you would have to reduce the gun season so it wasn't so long forcing more people to bow hunt if you want to up our P&Y numbers.
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 Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Txduckman]
#85840
08/29/06 05:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
MQ1
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8 |
You started to touch on it there Txduckman, Fenced in deer are like fenced in cattle you control what they eat and force them to get big right? They cant count with the real free range herds. If you think about it Fenced in canned hunts will be the death of our hunting as we know it or for some (Used to know it).RIGHT? Common sense will tell you it is for the $ , not the sportsman in mind, For instance if you start a fenced in setup in MI., the natural deer must be moved out first.So is the Hype and Glamore of all these grown trophy bucks the ticket? Yall tell me, Go to any of your fenced in yards and ask them to hunt, sure you can for 5k+, The true sportsman should think about this.
SO in closing, Should the farm raised bucks count on the P&Y , B&C scale?
My answer
HELL NO
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: MQ1]
#85841
08/29/06 05:43 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,058
HWY_MAN
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Quote:
You started to touch on it there Txduckman, Fenced in deer are like fenced in cattle you control what they eat and force them to get big right? They cant count with the real free range herds. If you think about it Fenced in canned hunts will be the death of our hunting as we know it or for some (Used to know it).RIGHT? Common sense will tell you it is for the $ , not the sportsman in mind, For instance if you start a fenced in setup in MI., the natural deer must be moved out first.So is the Hype and Glamore of all these grown trophy bucks the ticket? Yall tell me, Go to any of your fenced in yards and ask them to hunt, sure you can for 5k+, The true sportsman should think about this.
SO in closing, Should the farm raised bucks count on the P&Y , B&C scale?
My answer
HELL NO
I respect you answer, and i agree, but your knowledge of hi-fence operations and the deer hunting industry seems a little short.
The real death of deer hunting will come from hunters arguing about the ethics of another hunter method of hunting. This is what the anti's live for. We can be our own worst enemies.
Never liked the name sportsman. Hunting is not a game and it's not a sport, it's an instinct.
Last edited by HWY_MAN; 08/29/06 05:51 PM.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Burntorange Bowhunter]
#85842
08/29/06 05:45 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794
ILUVBIGBUCKS
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794 |
Quote:
I am assuming you are asking "why no Texas"?
Texas is usually third in B&C entries. the last numbers i remember were something like Kansas 27, Illinois 24 and Texas 21. Remember, high fence deer do not count. However you may feel about that subject.......nonetheless Texas would have 50 or more if they counted. take down all of the fences and I am sure we would at least beat 27.
P&Y........the fence thing again must be taken into consideration. Most other states have short gun seasons compared to ours. I used to hunt in SE OKlahoma for example. They had an 8 day gun season(now 15). If you bowhunted you could hunt all of October and December. Therefore these states have more bowhunters out of necessity.
I still call bullshit. we should still have more because we are THE GREAT STATE of TEXAS.
You are 100%, without a doubt correct on all accounts!
The only thing B & C has going for it is it's scoring system. They can stick that rule of 'fair chase', ie no high fenced deer allowed up the old dirt road! I do understand that there are instances that having a high fence is not fair chase, but at least 90% of ranches that are high fenced are fair chase situations. This gets into an argument that will go on and on just like it did in another thread.
And as far as Texas' production of trophy Whitetails goes, not other state comes close. I'll promise you there are far more 170"+ deer taken every year that are not entered into contest then are. This is for the simple fact that many ranches do not want it advertised that they are producing monster bucks! I'd bet there are in excess of 200 deer in this state every year that score over 170". If I counted right there were 89 bucks entered last year in the Los Cazadores Contest in Pearsall that scored 170"+! That's just one contest, granted one of the biggest but there are many others.
TEXAS IS KING OF WHITETAILED DEER, High School Football, and College Football! Hook em Horns!
High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: MQ1]
#85843
08/29/06 05:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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I will say if you go to a large fenced ranch in brush country it would be hard to tell a difference than an open range ranch. Most high fenced operations are giant meaning 5000 acres plus. You can drive around for a day and not see any or many deer as they stay in the thick brush. Only a helicopter can see them. Plus there are as many deer per acre in brush country as up in the Midwest or the hill country. And not all fenced places supplement feed. My friend has a 12,000 acre place fenced on 3 sides except the Nueces River so it would count towards the books but biggest they have shot is less than 150. They have pics of bigger ones but they want them mature if they are going to take them.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: MQ1]
#85844
08/29/06 06:22 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794
ILUVBIGBUCKS
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794 |
Quote:
You started to touch on it there Txduckman, Fenced in deer are like fenced in cattle you control what they eat and force them to get big right? They cant count with the real free range herds. If you think about it Fenced in canned hunts will be the death of our hunting as we know it or for some (Used to know it).RIGHT? Common sense will tell you it is for the $ , not the sportsman in mind, For instance if you start a fenced in setup in MI., the natural deer must be moved out first.So is the Hype and Glamore of all these grown trophy bucks the ticket? Yall tell me, Go to any of your fenced in yards and ask them to hunt, sure you can for 5k+, The true sportsman should think about this.
SO in closing, Should the farm raised bucks count on the P&Y , B&C scale?
My answer
HELL NO
I respect your opinion but strongly disagree with you on all accounts! Comparing Cattle to deer has no revelence. 'Force them to get big'??? How in the hell can you force an animal to get big? "Force them to eat what you want them to eat" No, all high fenced ranches I know of still have the same available natural food supply as the surrounding low-fenced ranches! The feeding program is or isn't whatever that paricular ranch wants it to be. If they have a feeding program then I'll agree it is to the benefit of their deer herd.
Next you talk moving out the natural deer herd. I don't understand your comment because the overwhelming majority of high-fenced ranches have never genetically altered their herds. Good genetics are everywhere you look in this state. The true key to producing trophy animals is age & nutrition! Why do you think ranchers invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to high fence a 2 or 3 thousand acre place? It's so that 4 year old 10 point that scores 140 doesn't jump the fence and get a piece of lead through his ribs! It's so that he can control not only the age class of his deer herd but also the carrying capacity of that particular ranch whether it's 1 deer to 20 acres without a feeding program or 1 deer to 2 acres with a superb, expensive feeding program.
Bottom line is that you do not like high-fenced ranches and I do respect your opinion on the matter. However, this is still a free country and as long as we have the right to own property, we should have the right to do whatever in the hell we want to do with it!
As far as "canned hunts" go I agree with you 100% but hunting on a ranch that is surrounded by an eight foot fence is not a canned hunt. Letting and animal out of a trailer and shooting it or killing a deer in a 10 or 20 acre pen is a canned hunt! Finding a particular deer inside of a 500 acre fenced place can be an impossible task if the country is heavily covered and the deer is mature. Try it in 3,000 acre ranch!
Once again, please don't take this the wrong way because I do respect you, but please respect other people's right to do what they want to as long as it doesn't break any laws.
High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Txduckman]
#85845
08/29/06 06:27 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794
ILUVBIGBUCKS
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794 |
Quote:
I will say if you go to a large fenced ranch in brush country it would be hard to tell a difference than an open range ranch. Most high fenced operations are giant meaning 5000 acres plus.
I would say that you are correct except for the fact that you may see more mature bucks while hunting for the simple fact that the place has controlled the number of deer that are taken each year to correspond to their respective management program. However, if this place has a 'monster' feeding program and is carrying twice as many deer as the next ranch over that is not feeding, then it's probably fair to say you will see more deer overall then a non-fenced, non-managed ranch!
High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: ILUVBIGBUCKS]
#85846
08/29/06 06:36 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,058
HWY_MAN
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: May 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
You started to touch on it there Txduckman, Fenced in deer are like fenced in cattle you control what they eat and force them to get big right? They cant count with the real free range herds. If you think about it Fenced in canned hunts will be the death of our hunting as we know it or for some (Used to know it).RIGHT? Common sense will tell you it is for the $ , not the sportsman in mind, For instance if you start a fenced in setup in MI., the natural deer must be moved out first.So is the Hype and Glamore of all these grown trophy bucks the ticket? Yall tell me, Go to any of your fenced in yards and ask them to hunt, sure you can for 5k+, The true sportsman should think about this.
SO in closing, Should the farm raised bucks count on the P&Y , B&C scale?
My answer
HELL NO
I respect your opinion but strongly disagree with you on all accounts! Comparing Cattle to deer has no revelence. 'Force them to get big'??? How in the hell can you force an animal to get big? "Force them to eat what you want them to eat" No, all high fenced ranches I know of still have the same available natural food supply as the surrounding low-fenced ranches! The feeding program is or isn't whatever that paricular ranch wants it to be. If they have a feeding program then I'll agree it is to the benefit of their deer herd.
Next you talk moving out the natural deer herd. I don't understand your comment because the overwhelming majority of high-fenced ranches have never genetically altered their herds. Good genetics are everywhere you look in this state. The true key to producing trophy animals is age & nutrition! Why do you think ranchers invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to high fence a 2 or 3 thousand acre place? It's so that 4 year old 10 point that scores 140 doesn't jump the fence and get a piece of lead through his ribs! It's so that he can control not only the age class of his deer herd but also the carrying capacity of that particular ranch whether it's 1 deer to 20 acres without a feeding program or 1 deer to 2 acres with a superb, expensive feeding program.
Bottom line is that you do not like high-fenced ranches and I do respect your opinion on the matter. However, this is still a free country and as long as we have the right to own property, we should have the right to do whatever in the hell we want to do with it!
As far as "canned hunts" go I agree with you 100% but hunting on a ranch that is surrounded by an eight foot fence is not a canned hunt. Letting and animal out of a trailer and shooting it or killing a deer in a 10 or 20 acre pen is a canned hunt! Finding a particular deer inside of a 500 acre fenced place can be an impossible task if the country is heavily covered and the deer is mature. Try it in 3,000 acre ranch!
Once again, please don't take this the wrong way because I do respect you, but please respect other people's right to do what they want to as long as it doesn't break any laws.
Well said.
Had a gentleman quote me 148,000 to put up an 8 ft fence on my place. 18,500 a mile. Looks like I'm gonna be a low fence for a long time. Personally I'd love to hi-fence mine, my neighbors aren't as picky about the size bucks they take, as i am. I just pour the corn to them and hope for the best.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: ILUVBIGBUCKS]
#85847
08/29/06 06:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752
M16
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752 |
Quote:
If I counted right there were 89 bucks entered last year in the Los Cazadores Contest in Pearsall that scored 170"+!
Don't forget that to make Boone & Crockett it has to net 170. The Los Cazadoes scores are gross not net. Very few of those deer would net high enough to make the book. Mine grossed 182 and netted 170 5/8.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: ILUVBIGBUCKS]
#85848
08/29/06 07:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
MQ1
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8 |
The state of Michgan requires you to move all natural deer out of the area that you are fencing in before you can start the operation up. You will then have to buy and move in your own deer herd etc. Is what i touched on.
Is there a ranch that is fenced in without the pump em up feeding program in TX ? a natural setting? Im curious. If evey state ,every place had fenced in ranches farms etc. Then what? This would be my concern.I think the word INDUSTRY is the demise.
Also not all trophy deer takin in Ill. Iowa, Ohio , etc. are put in the books either i am sure. I havent mine.
I appreciate the respect you have for open opinions , and i as well respect your comments.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: MQ1]
#85849
08/29/06 07:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721
Txduckman
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,721 |
Quote:
Is there a ranch that is fenced in without the pump em up feeding program in TX ? a natural setting?
Yes and they don't all buy deer from breeders. My buddies place are just that. They run a lot of cattle as well and have some food plots that might sprout once every 3 years depending on rain and they only run the corn feeders from Sept 1 till end of Jan. That is hardly supplemental since many guys who sell hunts for big horns spend thousands on protein feed. Unless you are Jack Brittingham with an unlimited money supply or selling hunts for big horns, high fencing and feeding protein doesn't seem to make sense. Many people just want to have some exotics to look at or hunt so a high fence is required. High fences also help the border patrol a little as well!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: MQ1]
#85850
08/29/06 08:11 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,058
HWY_MAN
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Posts: 31,058 |
Quote:
You will then have to buy and move in your own deer herd etc. Is what i touched on.
Is there a ranch that is fenced in without the pump em up feeding program in TX ? a natural setting? Im curious. If evey state ,every place had fenced in ranches farms etc. Then what? This would be my concern.I think the word INDUSTRY is the demise.
Also not all trophy deer takin in Ill. Iowa, Ohio , etc. are put in the books either i am sure. I havent mine.
I appreciate the respect you have for open opinions , and i as well respect your comments.
(The state of Michigan requires you to move all natural deer out of the area that you are fencing in before you can start the operation up.)
So does the state of Michigan pay the land owners a grazing fee, since they seem to think all the deer are theirs? Can the landowners make the state remove the deer from their land? How about this one. Maybe i can make the state of Michigan put up a high fence around my property to keep the deer out.
Sorry but Texas is like no other state, and we like it that way. Maybe if you were trying to pay the note on 3 sections (1,920 acres) and the tax's plus try and make a living, you'd have a different attitude. When you average 18 head of cattle per section, on a good year and nothing dies, you might get the note and the tax's paid.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#85851
08/29/06 08:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8
MQ1
Green Horn
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Green Horn
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8 |
Michigan must consider it farming is what i figgure,When you fence something in your raising it.IE ( Farming) Here in Ohio the ODNR considers deer and turkey their property yes, that is why we have to purchase a tag i suppose. Also in Ohio they call fenced in places preserve, therefore you dont have to follow the Ohio hunting seasons to hunt there and can even use your gun of choice ,Bear , Elk, or hogs, we dont even have seasons for those, I spose if you wanted to sell a hunt to pursue a Holstein you could too.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: M16]
#85852
08/29/06 10:10 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794
ILUVBIGBUCKS
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794 |
Don't forget that to make Boone & Crockett it has to net 170. The Los Cazadoes scores are gross not net. Very few of those deer would net high enough to make the book. Mine grossed 182 and netted 170 5/8.
Congratulations on a great deer!
Net score - just another thing that is screwed up with the B & C system. Why in the hell would anyone take away anything from what a deer grew. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you have to have a system that will differentiate from typical to non-typical. I just don't agree with taking away 4/8" because one G1 is 4 0/8 and the other is 4 4/8. Just my opinion and a major reason all I care about is gross typical score and gross non-typical score.
High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#85853
08/29/06 10:14 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794
ILUVBIGBUCKS
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,794 |
Quote:
When you average 18 head of cattle per section, on a good year and nothing dies, you might get the note and the tax's paid.
I doubt anyone could pay the note on 3 sections with the sale of 54 calves a year! Even at $500.00 each, that's still only $27,000 GP. That's 100% calf crop (impossible), no medicine, no feed, etc, etc, etc.
You made a great point.
High fence, low fence, no fence, it really doesn't matter as long as you're hunting!
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: ILUVBIGBUCKS]
#85854
08/30/06 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59
Burntorange Bowhunter
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 59 |
MQ, careful. You are making yourself seem very uneducated on the topic of which you speak. You are trying to say things like our deer are pumped full of steroids or something. Remember we are top five in B&C entries and that is off natual vegetation and low fenced. What you said about Michigan is worse. You have to clear the deer out and then buy deer....not natural at all. I also bet there are plenty of manufactured food plots up there. Is there a difference in protein from a feeder or planted plots....NO.
Fact: Texas is by far the best state for hunting and football.
The Edwards Plateau has the most dense whitetail population in the world and south Texas IS the premier monster buck region in the world.
We kicked OHio States ass and we are about to do it again. Oh yeah...we pimped Michigan too.
Perhaps you suffer from a case of penis envy???
We welcome you here, just watch what fights you pick.
We're TEXAS.
Ahhhh, the best time of year...Longhorn Football and Bowtech body piercing.
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Re: top 10 P&Y states
[Re: Burntorange Bowhunter]
#85855
08/30/06 01:00 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 91
hogsticker
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 91 |
Hunted in Michigan about 7 years ago, it is the only place I've seen where the sporting goods stores sell carrots by the truck load during deer season. You go out in the forest and you will find piles of carrots as deet bait. Also counted six dead does that probably were killed by someone who did not have doe tags.
Always drink upstream from the herd.
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