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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290413
06/10/21 01:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,231
wp75169
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After establishing enough data points to reliably predict what the combination of rifle, ammo, and shooter are capable of every single shot, you can identify outliers as fliers. Short of establishing the data points, you are guessing. So that number you seek is something you must identify for yourself. Makes sense. It would seem that eventually you reach the point where the limitations of factory ammo, combined with the same with shooting skills and the setup yields it impossible to determine if a shot is truly a flyer. And given the accuracy of today's factory rifles, how likely is the everyday hunter to see a clean bore flyer that can mean the difference in a lethal and non-lethal hit on a large game animal. That is, if not taking head shots but I digress. That’s the difference in expectations. A Hunter vs a target shooter.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290472
06/10/21 02:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
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Jgraider
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Not sure why anyone would respond to an obvious dumbasss OP question/thread.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: wp75169]
#8290494
06/10/21 02:30 PM
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Texas Dan
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That’s the difference in expectations. A hunter vs a target shooter. And the everyday target shooter vs. the competition enthusiast.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290530
06/10/21 02:41 PM
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Smokey Bear
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Dan, set the bar to suit what you do, then go with it. No value in casting stones at those who set the bar in a different place.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#8290579
06/10/21 03:26 PM
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Buzzsaw
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Shooters seeking a high level of precision learn that a cold clean bore shot will be predictably out of the group. Please describe the level of precision you consider achievable so that I can better see your point. Or, to ask it another way, what is your definition of a flyer using a given set of parameters? Ok Dan. The first two targets are doing some work on a load within an accuracy node at 100 yards with my savage model 16. They are three shot groups. It is a .223 hunting rig with a 2-10x scope. It is a sporter and it shoots good with a fouled barrel. 8208 is like pixie dust in it. The 25.3 grain 3 shot group was 0.188” center to center. The 25.3 grain load shot 0.138” center to center. I settled on 25.3 grains. I loaded five more to confirm the accuracy is repeatable and not a fluke, so this target is a five shot group. After adjusting the sights to the zero I plan to hunt with, center to center the group size for five is .258”. I am a hunter and monkey around with hunting rifles. Some of these target guys are a lot more serious than me. what bullet and twist rate Smokey?
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#8290581
06/10/21 03:28 PM
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J.G.
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What is your benchmark for acceptable accuracy? What is your definition of a flyer? How much do you shoot? The answer to your question very likely lies somewhere in the answer to those three questions. As a side comment: you are definitely not shooting N-165. That's a loaded question in that the accuracy of the shooter, their rifle, and their ammo are three different variables. For me, a flyer is an initial shot through a clean, cold barrel, using factory ammo that was later found to be more than 3/4 of an inch from the next shot taken when using only a forearm rest at a distance of 100 yards. For some, it might even be 1/2 inch or less using a more solid rest. In other words, it leaves the shooter thinking the difference between the two POI's is most likely due to the limitations of their shooting skills or accuracy of the ammo, than the state of the barrel. Your question brings to mind how people often post photos of targets, but without any reference to the state of the barrel or what type of rest was being used when the shots are taken. It would be interesting to see what's possible with a clean, cold barrel as opposed to one that's heavily fouled. No not a loaded question. The accuracy every shooter achieves is an aggregate of how well the shooter manages those variables. The level of repeatable precision one is looking for dictates how tight he/she manages those variables. The answer to your question boils down to whether clean patches or precision is more important to the shooter. Shooters seeking a high level of precision learn that a cold clean bore shot will be predictably out of the group. Rather than correct for that on the first shot, we shoot a fouled barrel and stack them all tight, with no correction. ^^Thread killer. It has been documented and shared, clean barrels do not shoot consistently, fouled ones do. .224", .243 (6mm), 264" (6.5mm) .284" (7mm), .308", .338" .458" Every one of them has tightened up after fouling a clean barrel. It has been shared, and explained to Dan. Yet, he wants to all over again.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290603
06/10/21 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 788
hermano W
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Dan, the burnt lube you are leaving in your clean barrel may be what gives you such dirty patches after just 5 shots.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290629
06/10/21 04:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Texan Til I Die
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Without reading all 35+ replies, I'll just throw this out. There are different definitions of "accuracy." There is hunting accuracy, casual long range shooter accuracy (that's me), PRS accuracy, bench rest accuracy and many others. When you hear one of the competition type shooters say their accuracy has fallen off and it's time to clean, odds are they're still shooting much better groups than the majority of the hunters out there. They're just not shooting as good as they were.
Example: I normally shoot 3'ish inch groups at 600 yards when I'm shooting good. If I'm shooting good but start getting 5 inch groups, I know it's time to clean. How many people that are just hunters can go out and ever shoot a 5 inch group at 600 yards? Very, very few. So it's all relative.
Silver spurs and gold tequila keep me hanging on. Pretty girls and old cantinas give me shelter from the storm.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: hermano W]
#8290664
06/10/21 04:40 PM
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Texas Dan
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Dan, the burnt lube you are leaving in your clean barrel may be what gives you such dirty patches after just 5 shots. That’s an excellent suggestion. I’ll run a little Hoppe’s and a couple of dry patches down the barrel before my next visit the range and compare the results. I must share a comment made in another forum concerning whether or not a rifle bore should be left wet or dry. “If she’s wet, she’s ready for action.” Being one who looks for the middle ground is what turned me onto the Hornady product, which I’ve found is very popular with other shooters. Even if I should find it leaves behind a burnt residue, I can’t see not using it since it protects so well with little or no impact on accuracy
Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/10/21 05:09 PM.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290716
06/10/21 05:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Big Fitz
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This video explains clean vs fouled bore.
Last edited by Big Fitz; 06/10/21 05:46 PM.
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290893
06/10/21 07:44 PM
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hermano W
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No oil of any kind in the barrel is my practice and suggestion.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8290919
06/10/21 08:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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J.G.
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I must share a comment made in another forum concerning whether or not a rifle bore should be left wet or dry. “If she’s wet, she’s ready for action.” ^^The dumbest thing anyone will read on the internet today.
Last edited by FiremanJG; 06/10/21 08:00 PM.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: J.G.]
#8290929
06/10/21 08:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Judd
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I must share a comment made in another forum concerning whether or not a rifle bore should be left wet or dry. “If she’s wet, she’s ready for action.” ^^The dumbest thing anyone will read on the internet today. I think he takes these as personal challenges.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Judd]
#8291015
06/10/21 09:23 PM
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Joined: May 2017
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Smokey Bear
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I must share a comment made in another forum concerning whether or not a rifle bore should be left wet or dry. “If she’s wet, she’s ready for action.” ^^The dumbest thing anyone will read on the internet today. I think he takes these as personal challenges. Uh.. never mind. I would get sent to timeout.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Big Fitz]
#8291024
06/10/21 09:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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Yes, lots of videos on the subject with some claiming a clean, cold bore shot will be high, while other claim it will be low. Here's one that places the clean, cold bore shot square in the middle. Note the reference to a barrel that's been broken in.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/10/21 09:30 PM.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Buzzsaw]
#8291117
06/10/21 10:54 PM
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Joined: May 2017
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Smokey Bear
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Shooters seeking a high level of precision learn that a cold clean bore shot will be predictably out of the group. Please describe the level of precision you consider achievable so that I can better see your point. Or, to ask it another way, what is your definition of a flyer using a given set of parameters? Ok Dan. The first two targets are doing some work on a load within an accuracy node at 100 yards with my savage model 16. They are three shot groups. It is a .223 hunting rig with a 2-10x scope. It is a sporter and it shoots good with a fouled barrel. 8208 is like pixie dust in it. The 25.3 grain 3 shot group was 0.188” center to center. The 25.3 grain load shot 0.138” center to center. I settled on 25.3 grains. I loaded five more to confirm the accuracy is repeatable and not a fluke, so this target is a five shot group. After adjusting the sights to the zero I plan to hunt with, center to center the group size for five is .258”. I am a hunter and monkey around with hunting rifles. Some of these target guys are a lot more serious than me. what bullet and twist rate Smokey? 9 twist. 55 grain ballistic tip. I use that load for varmint hunting.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8291163
06/10/21 11:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Big Fitz
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Yes, lots of videos on the subject with some claiming a clean, cold bore shot will be high, while other claim it will be low. Here's one that places the clean, cold bore shot square in the middle. Note the reference to a barrel that's been broken in. Congratulations Dan, you found a video that supports your desired reality vs. all the experience have told you, that you cannot expect the first shot of a clean bore to consistently hit in your normal group. Should have known better than to try to help.
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8291208
06/11/21 12:30 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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J.G.
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Today 1845 hr Tikka T-3 .308 Win. Hand load developed for it two years ago. It was freshly cleaned before these shots. And a new Bushnell DMR Mil/Mil scope mounted and bore sighted. Adjusted zero up .5 Mil, right .4 Mil. Clearly I went .1 Mil too far right.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8291218
06/11/21 12:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,288
Judd
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What? You mean your clean cold bore didn’t go where your fouled does? POS rifle
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Judd]
#8291249
06/11/21 12:58 AM
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J.G.
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What? You mean your clean cold bore didn’t go where your fouled does? NORMAL rifle FIFY
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: J.G.]
#8291441
06/11/21 09:41 AM
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David Maas
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Judd]
#8291443
06/11/21 10:19 AM
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Texas Dan
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What? You mean your clean cold bore didn’t go where your fouled does? POS rifle Let’s be honest, it would be just as crazy to question why every shot through a fouled barrel doesn’t creat the same POI. The discussion has already brought to light how clean bore flyers, if your rifle should happen to create one, is most likely never to be enough to result in miss at a large game animal at the average shooting distance. So the point really becomes that made in my OP, is it really necessary to let you rifle barrel stay so dirty for months or even years on end? If nothing else, just fire a fouling shot or two before each season and keep your investments clean and well protected while stored away.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/11/21 10:41 AM.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8291445
06/11/21 10:23 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
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wp75169
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Texas Dan]
#8291446
06/11/21 10:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
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wp75169
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You know you should do an engine and transmission flush every time you drive too. I’m mean gosh, you’re leaving it all dirty.
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Re: After just five shots
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#8291452
06/11/21 10:40 AM
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Marc K
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Dan, set the bar to suit what you do, then go with it. No value in casting stones at those who set the bar in a different place. Well said, Sir.
A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
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