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Feb 12th, 2024
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 This is why spike tags exist
#796941
07/13/09 05:16 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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I've seen many heated debates over the need to harvest spikes. While some seem to believe that EVERY young buck is sure to develop a nice rack if you give him enough time. I choose to side with those (including the TPWD) who say otherwise. While many yearling spikes will develop good racks in later years, the two-year point is when to start pulling the trigger on them. Here's one that won't get past me this coming season, should I be lucky enough to see him. 
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796942
07/13/09 05:22 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 902
MogulRanch
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hard to tell from that picture but he may well need to be shot. i think the argument from many is that if youre seeing older spikes that something else is deficient such as nutrition, exceeding the carrying capacity etc and thus you shouldnt shoot spikes.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: MogulRanch]
#796943
07/13/09 05:29 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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 Don't shoot spikes like this one.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: MogulRanch]
#796944
07/13/09 05:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 641
kuntry_kid
Tracker
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Quote:
hard to tell from that picture but he may well need to be shot. i think the argument from many is that if youre seeing older spikes that something else is deficient such as nutrition, exceeding the carrying capacity etc and thus you shouldnt shoot spikes.
I hunt at Camp Bullis on the north side of San Antonio. Last year we could shoot any spike as long as one side was slick. This year both sides have to be slick (and 4" tall) because the biologist for CB thinks the lack of water and possibly food (because trees/plants wont be producing well) will not allow the antlers grow to their full potential for the year.
I am a proud United States Air Force NCO and I thank all of you for your support!!! 
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#796945
07/13/09 05:51 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,838
Big Daddy K
Veteran Tracker
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I have had a dream several times that I have a giant thick antlerd (I mean thick) 10+ point buck in my sights but the spread is like straight up with about a 2 inch spread.
It ain't easy being me.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#796946
07/13/09 06:07 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796947
07/13/09 05:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,179
CBHunter
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Quote:
Dan is still wondering which lures work the best this time of year
LMAO 
My wife's only thing is it can't stare at her when she is eating or sleeping!
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: CBHunter]
#796948
07/13/09 05:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 990
gary75758
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since we have stepped up the doe harvest, planted food plots, fertilized the white oak stands and feed protien we have seen very few spikes and the ones we do have are very young deer. 
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796949
07/13/09 07:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,881
Cool_Hand
THF Trophy Hunter
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Quote:
I've seen many heated debates over the need to harvest spikes. While some seem to believe that EVERY young buck is sure to develop a nice rack if you give him enough time. I choose to side with those (including the TPWD) who say otherwise. While many yearling spikes will develop good racks in later years, the two-year point is when to start pulling the trigger on them.
Here's one that won't get past me this coming season, should I be lucky enough to see him.
I'll agree Dan, the debates are wide spread and the two year mark is definitely the year to take that spike. Another rule of thumb is if the antlers are shorter or below the ears, its a yearling buck. But above the ears is more than likely a two y.o. or older. I have seen a yearling buck adorn horns above the ear-line but somehow you can always tell by body size or some tell-tale sign.
 Benny Promise Ranch
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796950
07/13/09 07:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
dgilbert
THF Celebrity
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Don't know about the spike tags, but I will agree with you.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: dgilbert]
#796951
07/13/09 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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Quote:
Don't know about the spike tags...
Hunters in some areas of East Texas that were once in "one buck" counties are now allowed to take a second buck, so long as it carries "one unbranched antler." As explained by the TPWD when it implemented this change and the "13-inch" rule, studies have shown that if a buck doesn't develop two forked antlers by it's second year, it will very likely lag it's better peers for life.
It was something uncovered after several decades of studying antler growth in South Texas.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796952
07/13/09 09:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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Quote:
It was something uncovered after several decades of studying antler growth in South Texas.
Really and what was UNCOVERED? That spike bucks are always inferior genetically to forkhorn bucks......^^rolling eyes^^
Since your so into research... you might want to find out if a buck carries two sets of antlers genes one for the right and one for the left.... or just one set for both
Then come back and decide if your single "spike" buck is a trait or a condition.
One can be transfered to offspring, one can't.... Your herd you can do what ever the law allows you to... But make sure you decisions (your personal management plan)are based off more then a contolled expereiment which all things where NOT equal.
Again your lease or land do as you please...but as AMOS told you earlier in another thread, genetics is not as cut an dry as what you see with your eyes.
And here I said I wouldn't bite the lure... Hate it when that happens 
Last edited by jgiles; 07/15/09 12:53 AM.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796953
07/13/09 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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Quote:
Quote:
It was something uncovered after several decades of studying antler growth in South Texas.
Really and what was UNCOVERED? That spike bucks are always inferior genetically to forkhorn bucks......^^rolling eyes^^
Since your so into research... you might want to find out if a buck carries two sets of antlers genes one for the right and one for the left....
Then come back and decide if the "spike" is a trait or a condition.
One can be transfered to offspring, one can't.... Your herd you can do what ever the law allows you to... But make sure you decisions (your personal management plan)are based off more then a contolled expereiment which all things where NOT equal.
Again your lease or land do as you please...but as AMOS told you earlier in another thread, genetics is not as cut an dry as what you see with your eyes.
And here I said I wouldn't bite the lure... Hate it when that happens
I've seen a link on the TPWD website that makes it easy for anyone to provide the TPWD with their opinions and comments on current antler restrictions and allowing hunters to take spikes.
As for "fishing", there does seem to be something about my posts that attracts a quick response from those who disagree with whatever the topic might be. It's as if they can "hear" the tone of my voice, or at least what they think it sounds like to them.
Again, the TPWD did the research and put the findings into action to assist hunters in developing better and healthier deer. As with anything, some will agree while others won't.
I shared the picture because I thought it was a good example of what the TPWD had in mind with these new restrictions. I've also heard them called "cow horn" spikes. In the case of this picture, a "handle bar" spike seems more appropriate.
In fact, the deer appears to satisfy the requirements for both spike and spread. Now how often do you see one that does that?
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796954
07/13/09 10:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
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Quote:
Since your so into research... you might want to find out if a buck carries two sets of antlers genes one for the right and one for the left....
Then come back and decide if the "spike" is a trait or a condition.
So anwser this above then tell me if you think your deer above is a genetic trait or an enviormental condition??? And why it's a good idea to take him out.
What about the buck Amos posted? That deer was harvested the next year... wonder what he turned into? AMOS???
Again your deer your free to manage it in what ever way you want... thats why you buy a hunting license.. just make sure your not giving out the wrong advice
Just a thought becuase i dought you will anwser the top question.....ever think that maybe the TPWD did a trade off... something to give to get thier antler restictions??? Kind of like Obama appeal to the mis-guided, give them something they think they need for his election in return.
Last edited by jgiles; 07/13/09 10:14 PM.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796955
07/13/09 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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Quote:
So anwser this above then tell me if you think your deer above is a genetic trait or an enviormental condition??? And why it a good idea to take him out.
JMO, but I would say both environment and genetic factors are at play in the development of a rack. IF a buck get sufficient nutrition, he will more likely reach his genetic potential. But of course, genetic potential is something set at conception.
As I understand it, the TPWD studies found that given sufficient nutrition, the genetic potential can be estimated by the second year. Common sense would seem to dictate that environment factors apply to all deer. The better two-year bucks are going to appear below their potential, while the lesser bucks do even more.
It's the relative difference in what you catch on film that dictates what should and shouldn't be taken.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796956
07/13/09 10:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
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as to this statement Quote:
As for "fishing", there does seem to be something about my posts that attracts a quick response from those who disagree with whatever the topic might be. It's as if they can "hear" the tone of my voice, or at least what they think it sounds like to them.
I give you your orginal post(I can't beleive you don't see anything in the fisrt sentence??? and then your opinion to try to make you opinion factual? Fishing...humm.. I'd say so...
Quote:
I've seen many heated debates over the need to harvest spikes. While some seem to believe that EVERY young buck is sure to develop a nice rack if you give him enough time. I choose to side with those (including the TPWD) who say otherwise. While many yearling spikes will develop good racks in later years, the two-year point is when to start pulling the trigger on them.
And you wonder why
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796957
07/13/09 10:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 116
rayman2346
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 116 |
Im not trying to start anything. But I will say one thing. My brother in law hunts off the trinity river and kills 150 plus deer off of it.
He has killed a 4 year old spike off of it one time. It had spikes that where probably 15 inches long on each side. And has seen many more just havent been able to get a shot at them.
And every year he sees them he also see 30-40 shooter bucks. Im not taking any sides by any means. Just stating what I have seen. Hope it helps.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796958
07/13/09 10:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526 |
Quote:
Quote:
So anwser this above then tell me if you think your deer above is a genetic trait or an enviormental condition??? And why it a good idea to take him out.
JMO, but I would say both environment and genetic factors are at play in the development of a rack. IF a buck get sufficient nutrition, he will more likely reach his genetic potential. But of course, genetic potential is something set at conception.
As I understand it, the TPWD studies found that given sufficient nutrition, the genetic potential can be estimated by the second year. Common sense would seem to dictate that environment factors apply to all deer. The better two-year bucks are going to appear below their potential, while the lesser bucks do even more.
It's the relative difference in what you catch on film that dictates what should and shouldn't be taken.
Enviormental encompasses more then just sufficient nutrition or insufficicent nutrition... you forgot the part of injury to the deer or injury to his pedicel.
Put it this way.. instead of looking at his bad(spike side) look at his good side.... base your decision to take him off his good side not his bad side.... the likely hood of his bad side being a result of injury is far higher then it being a genetic flaw...
The picture that amos posted above ended up being a 200 class deer the next year that i think his dad took.
Think of it interms of you have a picture of hime and you think he is only 2 years old. Therefor you still don't know what the good side is capable of... It may in fact be a 150 class buck with a bad injury.... Do you really want to take a potential 150 class breeder out of your heard that soon? He may very well never get over 40 inches on his good side... Just saying use his good side to make the CULL call.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796959
07/13/09 10:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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Quote:
I give you your orginal post(I can't beleive you don't see anything in the fisrt sentence??? and then your opinion to try to make you opinion factual? Fishing...humm.. I'd say so...
So you want to ding me for sharing my agreement with the TPWD (or anyone else) that two-year spikes should be harvested?
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: rayman2346]
#796960
07/13/09 10:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526 |
Quote:
Im not trying to start anything. But I will say one thing. My brother in law hunts off the trinity river and kills 150 plus deer off of it.
He has killed a 4 year old spike off of it one time. It had spikes that where probably 15 inches long on each side. And has seen many more just havent been able to get a shot at them.
And every year he sees them he also see 30-40 shooter bucks. Im not taking any sides by any means. Just stating what I have seen. Hope it helps.
Don't doubt that a bit... big differenace between a mature buck with two long spikes and a buck with one spike.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796961
07/13/09 10:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 116
rayman2346
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 116 |
Yes I agree sorry I didnt see that pic to good. It does branch off on that one side.
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Texas Dan]
#796962
07/13/09 11:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526 |
Quote:
Quote:
I give you your orginal post(I can't beleive you don't see anything in the fisrt sentence??? and then your opinion to try to make you opinion factual? Fishing...humm.. I'd say so...
So you want to ding me for sharing my agreement with the TPWD (or anyone else) that two-year spikes should be harvested?
if you anwser my orginal question it sums it up even in terms of TPWD. But if you need to use that as justifaction to shot your deer knock your selfout. But anwser your self this is the piece of property you hunt controlled enough that you can tell what the percentage is that buck won't reach you management average score(or be a 130,140, 150,160,170 class deer).
Not the best article but it will help you with one horned spikesweb page
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#796963
07/13/09 11:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,881
Cool_Hand
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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You guys can hash this thing out but if you know your deer on the place you hunt, you can easily identify a second year spike and by all means he should be harvested. Another thingis, I know this is room for more discussion, but your does play more of a part in gene controll as to what its goig to be or not to be. You alls thoughts there? 
Benny Promise Ranch
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Cool_Hand]
#796964
07/13/09 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,269
Texas Dan
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Quote:
You guys can hash this thing out but if you know your deer on the place you hunt, you can easily identify a second year spike and by all means he should be harvested. Another thingis, I know this is room for more discussion, but your does play more of a part in gene controll as to what its goig to be or not to be. You alls thoughts there?
This is true. But unfortunately, there is nothing visible to estimate the genetic potential that a doe passes to her offspring.
There will never be a silver bullet when it comes to creating the most effective harvest. Every approach will have its negative effects. But as with anything else, the best approach seems to be the one that comes from experience, rather than theory.
This will be our third year under the 13-inch and spike rules in Houston County. And if what we've been seeing and let pass for the past two seasons is an indication, we're in for some fantastic hunting later this year.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: This is why spike tags exist
[Re: Cool_Hand]
#796965
07/13/09 11:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,526 |
Quote:
You guys can hash this thing out but if you know your deer on the place you hunt, you can easily identify a second year spike and by all means he should be harvested. Another thingis, I know this is room for more discussion, but your does play more of a part in gene controll as to what its goig to be or not to be. You alls thoughts there?
Cool hand... I'm done hashing... genes are funny thing.. think of it this way....
In cattle you can control their numbers and thier enviorment(food) and their genes via what they are breed to and who thier parnets where... hence registered cattle... if you can do that with a non-high fenced wild deer herd day in day out you just made millions .
Its the opinion vs facts and what is the best course of action... its all about contolling or thinking your controling probability..things that make you go hummmmmmmm 
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