I'm not arguing whether, or not the guy should keep his job....I'm arguing whether or not he should be tried for murder. What's wrong with getting fact before we convict some one of murder?

Has social media become the new judicial system? Has it come to this?

Well I think video is pretty obvious you know what I see with my own eyes I can make that judgment so no I'm not convicted the man of murder but I dang sure think he should be arrested and tried for murder.

I mean video evidence what else do you need? You have video of exactly what happened You saw exactly what I saw what else do you need.

In my opinion when we have video evidence of what happened there shouldn't even be a trial that dude should be hung from a tree right now. same with somebody that gets caught with a little kid Don't try them hang them from a tree right in the town square for everybody to see.

I dont want to think I know, I want to know I know.

That's exactly what it's become and many seem to like it that way.

Then there is this.

The cause of death, may be the difference, between 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter.

I'm not speaking from emotion about what I believe happened or what I think should happen. I'm simply talking about indisputable facts. I'm not saying the cause of death isn't important to the case, I'm saying based on the facts it likely won't change where the case against the officer goes.

1. When he was put on the ground he was alive and communicating.
2. He died while he had the officer's knee on his neck.
3. Experts can make a compelling argument that the officer's actions contributed to his death.
4. Under these circumstances it's extremely difficult to impossible to prove the officer's actions did not contribute to his death, even if they didn't.

Those are simply facts, no emotion involved. I will say what the officer did was not Murder, at least in the context of Texas law. I believe Minnesota law uses Murder with varying degrees which would equate to Manslaughter or Criminally Negligent Homicide to cover lack of intent. Again, "but for his actions". It doesn't matter what else happened or what anyone believes might have happened otherwise, that term is not going to go away.

All that video shows is the "knee guy" is an a-hole....not that the a-hole killed him. Questions that need to be asked:

1) Did the knee to the neck directly cause the death? Asphyxiation...sounds like that's a no
2) Did the other two officers suffocate or in any other way directly cause the death? ....sounds like that's a no
3) from the initial report, sounds like a cardiac incident either exacerbated by drugs or directly caused by them.
4) Was he fighting with the officers even after handcuffed? if yes, I would argue the victim has some culpability in him having a heart attack.

I agree the officers should have let up when he went limp, but as S.A. has said, let's not let emotion get in the way of a sound investigation and a possible life sentence for at least 3 of the officers who's only "crime" confirmed by that video is being A-holes and whatever else you want to call them.

Would it change your line of thinking if the victim was not handcuffed, resisting officers and he had a heart attack in the process?

if not for the officers actions of trying to take him in to custody, he wouldn't have had a heart attack.....

I agree with you that a prosecutor could easily argue what you stated above. But a criminal defense attorney could easily argue the opposite.....

4 people watched him die and none lifted a finger to render aid. No one deserves that. No one.

That's a totally different scenario and has nothing to do with what I posted. In your scenario the person is actively fighting, in this one he was handcuffed on the ground. As I said in my post, nothing in it has anything to do with what I believe should or should not happen to the officer. It was simply an observation of relevant facts from the videos. You're correct that a defense attorney can argue anything they want, and had the guy been conscious when they got him up and had died later he might be successful. The guy died on video while handcuffed with the officer on his neck. That video would probably convict Jesus himself.

So then by this logic, the other two officers should be arrested and charged as well...since they were touching him when he died.

Come on man, do you really think another officer touching him is the same as holding him down with a knee on his neck? And where in my posts did I indicate I think that?

I guess I’m just using your logic. I mean no where did you nor the ME indicate where the cop putting his knee on him killed him. So if we’re going by “what looks bad” or “if not for his actions” as you put it, then why can’t one argue “if not for his actions” with the other two officers?

"no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation"; however, the combined effects of being pinned down by an officer as well as "his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death."

That is reportedly from the M.E.'s office. I haven't seen enough of the videos to know exactly what the other officers were doing, but if the other officers were physically holding him down I get what you're saying to a degree. Still, it's not exactly a stretch to presume the officer with his knee on they guy's neck would get the brunt of whatever is coming. It's also not a stretch to argue just the reduction of oxygen (not fully cutting it off) for several minutes could have easily contributed to his death with his conditions, but that's for lawyers to fight over. I recall another officer or EMT checking for a carotid pulse while the officer's knee was still on his neck, not finding a pulse, and the officer stayed in that position for a period of time after that. I believe he stayed in that position for about two minutes after Floyd went limp. The bottom line is they don't have to prove the officer's actions alone killed Floyd, just that his actions contributed to his death and that his actions were not objectively reasonable.

Closer to three minutes after he went limp.

I just watched the video for the first time.

That was baaaaad.......!!!

Guys, I get what the argument is trying to say about cause of death and not directly related to being choked out.

BUT, a heart attack is nothing more than a lack of oxygen to the heart muscle. Any doctor would not be able to testify that someone kneeling on a persons neck and that person having a heart attack is not directly related to the actions of kneeling on the neck causing some of the lack of oxygen being delivered to the heart. Yes he may have had underlying heart disease, but that’s like saying you take a person with heart disease and place them in a environment with 5% oxygen for 4 minutes and then watch them pass out and leave them there for another three and then say the underlying heart disease was the cause of death and not the “being locked in a 5% oxygen room for 4 minutes and then after passing out and staying in there for another three minutes”

Let’s be real here, this guy would very likely not be dead if he was cuffed, left in the cruiser, and taken to the department. The problem is, we can argue very likely, not likely, possible all day long. The answer is he is dead and the heart attack can be linked in a very real way to a guy kneeling on his neck for 7 minutes, 3 minutes after he passed out. THAT is all that matters. There is no way to prove he would be dead any other way (cuffed in the cruiser, tripping out on drugs, etc) as those are all possibilities only. The only thing we know for sure is he is dead because his heart didn’t receive enough oxygen.

Regarding the other cops present, they should be tried as accomplices to manslaughter or murder or whatever. They watched and listened and didn’t react when the guy went limp to get their guy off and render aid. That’s like people in the room watching my analogy pass out and saying “yeah it’s fine, let’s see how long it takes for them to wake back up”
That is just not normal human behavior no matter what the circumstances were prior to the perp being taken to the ground. I can see waiting maybe 10-20 seconds, but come on, 3 minutes? We all have seen someone pass out, there are clues they aren’t faking it and it is pretty dang obvious these guys didn’t care one iota.


And let’s be honest here, if that was our kid, husband, brother, whatever, we’d be super pissed about the situation too. Let’s not forget george Floyd was a human being and not some object for our enjoyment, entertainment, or torture. I am not justifying the looting, violence, and craziness, but for dang sure I am advocating for protesting given this scenario.

You are assuming it was lack of oxygen........

^^^Anybody have cliff notes?^^^

SA, a heart attack is a lack of oxygen to the heart muscle. Myocardial infarction aka heart attack.

A coronary aneurysm would be classified as such, and a arrhythmia would be directly related to a lack of oxygen as well. I don’t know any situation where a doctor would testify the relative lack of oxygen from someone kneeling on the patients neck for 7 minutes could not be at least causal in the heart attack. It makes absolutely no medical sense to say it wasn’t. Especially since he was awake and alive for 4 minutes of the video, and unresponsive for 3 minutes, it would be just a bad medical opinion to say the heart attack wasn’t attributed to the neck kneeling.

If you have other thoughts please feel free to share. I am just giving my medical opinion but i know i am not always correct.

One thing we have to remember, yes there are times when kneeling on someone’s neck wouldn’t cause a heart attack. However, in this particular situation, someone knelt on someone’s neck and that person died from a heart attack. Two entirely different situations and one situation is not at all related to the other.

I know some folks don’t want to believe that those cops killed that man, and I’d like to believe that myself, but it’s time to give that idea up.

You are saying that, the knee caused the lack of oxygen and the lack of oxygen caused his heart attack..... I'm saying let's wait for the details to come out. I suspect they might of called for paramedics before he went unconscious. Maybe before he was on the ground........ waiting for the facts. The narrative that he suffocated because the knee to the back of the neck is sunk.

Did they render aid?

SA, I am not saying the knee to the neck caused a stoppage of oxygen, just a diminished supply of oxygen to the heart. That was enough to trigger the heart attack. Even if he was tripping on drugs, there is no guarantee he would have died from that alone, but couple some pre-existing cardiac disease, the knee on the neck decreasing his oxygen levels in an agitated state, and anything else, and that means he has an increased risk of dying from a heart attack. Which he did. It is my opinion you would be very hard pressed to find a doctor that says the knee on the neck wasn’t at least partially causative of the heart attack, unless there is tell tale proof he was having chest pain or other symptoms of a heart attack prior, but then you are getting into a failure to render aid and all that. I am not convicting anyone of anything just yet, but just saying the knee on the neck was a very likely cause of Floyd’s death.