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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Change in Conservation Mind Set...
#749010
06/05/09 06:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
OP
THF Celebrity
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OP
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Posts: 11,669 |
That other post on "How young" got me thinking. How much do you feel like ideas of conservation and (I hate to use this word because it doesn't seem like we can't remain civil in debates about it but...) ethics have changed over the last 30 years? My grandfather killed deer like mad, they ate every scrap of every deer killed, in fact that's all they ate most times. He killed them year round. They were food, and he grew up in times when ranching in south Texas was tough. He had mouths to feed and a family to raise. He carried this mentality throughout his life and almost had us convinced that killing every deer around was a good idea. I can remember killing 6 or 7 bucks between 3 of us on one weekend when I was in jr high and high school! I've since become much more picky on what I shoot. I'll not kill a buck unless he's significantly bigger than the last one I killed and that's been almost 10 years ago. I kill a doe or two every year and now that my son is hunting I'll let him shoot them. He knows that he'll not need to kill a buck unless it's bigger than his first one and is a mature deer. My dad is coming around but if it's 8 points or better he'll shoot it doesn't matter if it's 2 years old. I think all of us would be stretching the truth if we said that we were or grew up as conservation minded 30 years ago as we are now. Thoughts...Opinions?
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749011
06/05/09 06:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,839
kdub
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,839 |
Im not sure if today most people really are as conservation minded. For example your dad ate every scrap of meat from the deer that he shot, I know people who shoot ducks for example, throw them in the freezer and never eat them. I think today while there is a group that has a conservation mind set, that there is also a large group who hunt for the fun of it and not the meat. I could go to the store for my meat, but I hunt because I like to, but I think its important to eat what you kill, unless you're shooting predators and hogs for nuisance purposes.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: kdub]
#749012
06/05/09 06:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
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I agree with that Kdub. The majority of hunters still have that "limit out" mentality. I guess to each his own, although I am totally against it. I've heard the statements made, "I pay for a lease and I'm going to get every penny's worth out of it..." It seems like the same folks are the ones griping about only having small deer. Taylor county will go from a 1 buck to a 2 buck county this year and I truly hate to see that happen. I anticipate an enormous decline in the number of mature (4 and 5 year old deer over the next 5 years. We'll see...
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: kdub]
#749013
06/05/09 06:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402
PKnTX
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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Quote:
Im not sure if today most people really are as conservation minded. For example your dad ate every scrap of meat from the deer that he shot, I know people who shoot ducks for example, throw them in the freezer and never eat them. I think today while there is a group that has a conservation mind set, that there is also a large group who hunt for the fun of it and not the meat. I could go to the store for my meat, but I hunt because I like to, but I think its important to eat what you kill, unless you're shooting predators and hogs for nuisance purposes.
I agree with kdub. Just being picky about the
antlers taken is not a sign of conservation as
it concerns wildlife. I don't see hunters as
being any more ethical or concerned about ecology
than previous generations.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: PKnTX]
#749014
06/05/09 06:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
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Do you still know of hunters shooting 10-15 deer a year? Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in my initial post. You gentlemen are making very valid points.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749015
06/05/09 06:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402
PKnTX
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2005
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It's not been long ago I new folks that still
shoot deer year round for meat. I no longer
have anything to do with them but where they
lived it was obviously not having a negative
affect on deer population (a moot point, I know.
Still illegal).
My point being that trophy hunters are not
necessarily better conservationist or more ethical
just because they may kill fewer animals.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: PKnTX]
#749016
06/05/09 07:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
OP
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Is a mindset of letting deer mature and balancing the overall population not indicative of a conservation minded individual? There are two types of horn hunters in my book, those that want to kill only a "trophy" set of horns and those that are PO'd when they don't kill something with horns no matter how big. True that neither could be considered conservationists, but I'd rather have the guy that passes a 120" two year old ten point looking for a 180" 5 year old deer, than the guy that shoots the first 8 point he sees then hammers another one later in the season...
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749017
06/05/09 07:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,839
kdub
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,839 |
^^^I understand what you're saying.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: kdub]
#749018
06/05/09 07:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402
PKnTX
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402 |
If conservation or ethics is being
considered by antler scores, I will abstain.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: PKnTX]
#749019
06/05/09 08:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
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Not the case at all. I'm talking about "conservation hunters". The instance above is my belief that there are two types of horn hunters. I'd rather have the one than the other...if I had to choose.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749020
06/05/09 08:16 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,262
RICK O'SHAY
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 6,262 |
Quote:
I agree with that Kdub. The majority of hunters still have that "limit out" mentality. I guess to each his own, although I am totally against it. I've heard the statements made, "I pay for a lease and I'm going to get every penny's worth out of it..." It seems like the same folks are the ones griping about only having small deer. Taylor county will go from a 1 buck to a 2 buck county this year and I truly hate to see that happen. I anticipate an enormous decline in the number of mature (4 and 5 year old deer over the next 5 years. We'll see...
Man I'm the guy that's JUST NOW getting off the fence on this subject. My dad had the same mind set but he came from a time when farmers viewed deer then like we view hogs now.
And my back ground was "day hunts" and I always felt like if I was gonna pay $50 a day and probably only get to hunt 1 or 2 weekends a year I was gonna tag out even if I had to shoot a button buck.
Now that I've been leasing a few years and know I will have more than one chance to get a deer things have changed, I have MUCH higher standards. I'm just now (last couple of years) getting into the "mature deer" concept. heck 7 or 8 years ago NO ONE except the GW could tell the age of a deer and he could only tell after removing the lower jaw.
DISCLAIMER
ATTENTION: Your decision should NEVER be based SOLELY upon my advice, recomendation, or opinion.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: RICK O'SHAY]
#749021
06/05/09 08:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
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Bingo...that's what I'm talking about. Thanks Rick
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749022
06/05/09 09:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 535
scooter79
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 535 |
conservation is the protection of the species... all this sounds more like management to me. Selective harvest of an animal based on its age or "score" hardly qualifies as conservation. If you want to "conserve" deer improve the habitat and allow them to prosper not for they size of the rack, but to have a healthy population. We all improve the habitat and feed to promote a heavy rack. Only harvesting one deer a year seems like you would be promoting over population. Look at the "conservation" used to bring back the Rocky Mountain Elk. they didnt do what they did to grow giant racks...they brought back healthy numbers of healthy animals. Conservation may not be the right word here.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: scooter79]
#749023
06/05/09 09:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402
PKnTX
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 5,402 |
Quote:
conservation is the protection of the species... all this sounds more like management to me. Selective harvest of an animal based on its age or "score" hardly qualifies as conservation. If you want to "conserve" deer improve the habitat and allow them to prosper not for they size of the rack, but to have a healthy population. We all improve the habitat and feed to promote a heavy rack. Only harvesting one deer a year seems like you would be promoting over population. Look at the "conservation" used to bring back the Rocky Mountain Elk. they didnt do what they did to grow giant racks...they brought back healthy numbers of healthy animals. Conservation may not be the right word here.
Well said.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: PKnTX]
#749024
06/05/09 09:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
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Whatever it's called, has the mindset changed in the last 30 years? We know, PK, that you believe that it has not. I feel that for the most part it has (all be it very little). Perhaps management does better suit what we're talking about here. I'm full aware that a healthy population is the goal of conservation. Our BTD ration is 7:1. That's not a balanced population in my opinion. Now we're a 2 buck county. What will that do to our population? Seems to me we should add another doe to the license instead of another buck. Would that not be the proper thing to do from a management and a conservation standpoint?
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749025
06/05/09 10:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,235
highlonesome1
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,235 |
Sustainable population is the key. We work closely with our rancher to ensure the deer population is acceptable. Our deer are healthy and happy.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: highlonesome1]
#749026
06/05/09 10:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 535
scooter79
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 535 |
I dont know about your ranch cody, but on our lease we are required by the land owner to shoot our does First, this is to make sure that we have a healthy BTD ratio. I dont know what it is, but we take out does because we are all only going to probably take 1 buck. Why?...because we let all the smaller, inferior, younger bucks walk in hopes of that big boy. If everyone would harvest the does on the license, we may have a better BTD ratio. opening weekend is a blood bath..does are hanging every where. This helps with the buck hunting during the rut....less does to breed= more bucks running around looking : )
Last edited by scooter79; 06/05/09 10:59 PM.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: highlonesome1]
#749027
06/05/09 11:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,698
Hoytman
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,698 |
I may be on the other side of this debate but my hunting is for the meat then the antlers. I eat 2or 3 deer a year and a hog or 2 if i can get em. Im not in it to kill monster bucks but fot the steaks and the sausage. Im just as happy with a doe as i am with a buck and really dont want 3 or 4 year old deer, there as tough as nails and good for chili meat only. I wont shoot any out of season and only what i have tags for so not sure if im conservation minded.
(Sig Pic to be no more than 125 pixels tall)
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: scooter79]
#749028
06/05/09 11:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 72
ol_hoot
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 72 |
40 years ago in south-east Texas the only land that had a fence or gate on it had cows grazing it ... otherwise it was wide open. There were "woods" roads you could take and travel anywhere in the county and only have to cross asphalt occasionally.
Hunting in those days, for me at least, was just picking a place that looked good.
I mainly hunted squirrels, rabbits and birds but could have just as well been hunting deer.
When I deer hunted it was usually with my uncle who was a dyed in the wool hound man.
He kept a bunch of scraggly looking "deer dogs" and would load them in his truck and drive the dirt roads until he found some tracks, then put standers at startegic spots and turn the dogs loose.
Whatever came out got shot at ... usually several times and sometimes even hit.
Those days are gone here.
EVERYTHING is leased up.
If you ain't on a lease there is no reason to have mud grips on your truck cause there ain't no dirt roads that are open anymore. Gates with locks everywhere you look.
... and there is LOTS more deer than I ever saw before.
With all of the gates, the outlawing of dog hunting and an aggressive Game Warden force, east Texas has gotten a lot bigger deer herd as best as I can tell.
I think the gates help keep the night hunters with spot-lights at bay as well.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: ol_hoot]
#749029
06/05/09 11:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 535
scooter79
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 535 |
And the fact that people know that there is alot of money to be made by leasing land to people wanting to shoot deer.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: scooter79]
#749030
06/06/09 02:00 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,679
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,679 |
Hell 20 years ago I remeber my Grandfather killing out the herd every year.. it was a slaughter fest... Crop depermation permits for Speed goats, and whitetail and say bye bye... He would roll over in his grave now if he new my ideas of conservation.... He hated deer, spped goats and praire dogs with a passion... Nothing but money eaters.. Old school ranchers and farmers have a strong distaste for the fury animals..
We have more Deer(Whitetails and mulies) and Pronghorn then we have ever had in the panhandle...Some love them some hate them... I do think the state can be a little more helpful in helping ease popultions of some species now a days...I do think they get a little over zealous with there STATE owned natural resources... Its a little dishearting when your on a combine harvesting corn and about 100 proghorn come out of there... our watching 50 proghorn mow down your winter wheat.
Over all I can't complain to much we now have a great deer herd all over the nation.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749031
06/06/09 02:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402
PKnTX
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402 |
Quote:
I agree with that Kdub. The majority of hunters still have that "limit out" mentality. I guess to each his own, although I am totally against it. I've heard the statements made, "I pay for a lease and I'm going to get every penny's worth out of it..." It seems like the same folks are the ones griping about only having small deer. Taylor county will go from a 1 buck to a 2 buck county this year and I truly hate to see that happen. I anticipate an enormous decline in the number of mature (4 and 5 year old deer over the next 5 years. We'll see...
Got to say I am very curious as to why anyone
would be totally against a hunter taking their
legal limit of game.
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: scooter79]
#749032
06/06/09 02:18 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,679
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,679 |
Quote:
conservation is the protection of the species... all this sounds more like management to me. Selective harvest of an animal based on its age or "score" hardly qualifies as conservation. If you want to "conserve" deer improve the habitat and allow them to prosper not for they size of the rack, but to have a healthy population. We all improve the habitat and feed to promote a heavy rack. Only harvesting one deer a year seems like you would be promoting over population. Look at the "conservation" used to bring back the Rocky Mountain Elk. they didnt do what they did to grow giant racks...they brought back healthy numbers of healthy animals. Conservation may not be the right word here.
True to an extent.... but it is conservation in a lot of ways... more prominate big racks is a bia product of a healthy population... healthy population is keeping the numbers at or below carring capacity of the habitat...therefor managing for big racks is also conservation via protecting the land via selective harvest.
Also that conservation of the rocky mountian elk you mention was nothing more then protecting a low population until its a can sustain yearly harvest... at the same note... Look what the gaint explosion in population of elk have done to cause the stall of the recovery of mule deer population in CO..
Conservation to me means making sure future generations have a healthly viable resource to hunt... You don't implement management via huntes or harvest numbers then you don't have a heard so you can't have conservation IMO
Those two words can't live with out each other 
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: cody]
#749033
06/06/09 03:27 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 17,104
Closed Traverse
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Quote:
Do you still know of hunters shooting 10-15 deer a year? Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in my initial post. You gentlemen are making very valid points.
on my uncles lease last yr, with 6 hunters on 6000 acres, they had to take off 200 does, and 150 bucks....... my uncle killed at least 15 does, and i think 7 or 8 bucks, his son shot several, and he had a few friends.... but i didnt get to go this year... 
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Re: Change in Conservation Mind Set...
[Re: Closed Traverse]
#749034
06/06/09 03:52 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,679
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,679 |
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