Forums46
Topics539,786
Posts9,754,094
Members87,191
|
Most Online25,604 Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7133668
04/05/18 08:57 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Yessir I have spent a lot of time and money trying to wring an extra minute or two or three out of that first/last part of the day. Am even considering new binocs primarily for that reason. Will have to look at Zeiss now.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7133685
04/05/18 09:11 PM
|
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,278
Smokey Bear
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,278 |
Zeiss has several models. The Victory HT are their best performers in low light.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7133956
04/06/18 01:52 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,234
gusick
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,234 |
Why do scope objectives have to be circular? If they were oval shaped, they could be mounted lower.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: gusick]
#7133984
04/06/18 02:12 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Why do scope objectives have to be circular? If they were oval shaped, they could be mounted lower. Leupold made one that had a “cut out” at the bottom so it could be mounted lower. The marketing guys worked overtime on that one.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#7133990
04/06/18 02:18 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,306
wp75169
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,306 |
Why do scope objectives have to be circular? If they were oval shaped, they could be mounted lower. Leupold made one that had a “cut out” at the bottom so it could be mounted lower. The marketing guys worked overtime on that one. And I think it failed miserably. See VX-3L. UGLY
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7133994
04/06/18 02:21 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,306
wp75169
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,306 |
I want to get my hands on one of those 3Ls and do the math. I’m not sure there’s any surface gain. I agree with NP. Strictly marketing.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7134211
04/06/18 01:41 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,407
WileyCoyote
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,407 |
Last time I bought scopes, I bought 3 of them all at about the same time umm 3 years ago. Having had lots of 3x9x40's 4x12's, 3.5x10's yadda yadda 1" tubes in various medium priced brands and models most of my 40+ years of shooting life, I wanted more light than I was getting from those scope configurations the older I've gotten, and have lost the use of my non shooting eye as well, making binoculars less efficient to use for me as well.
I wound up buying a pair of Vortex Viper HS's in 30mm tube in a 2-10x44 and a 4x16x44 AO, and a Minox ZA HD 5 30mm tube 2-10x50. IMO the Minox has definitely better glass, in a slightly heavier bulkier scope, but gives me more dawn & dusk light and it gets used as a fixed position scope in semi brushy settings with ranges under about 300-350 yards. The Vortex 2-10x44 is my do all go anywhere scope and needs it's sun shade in bright light and is significantly better for my useage than a standard 3x9x40 in the same quality glass, for an insignificant $'s difference.
The 4-16x44 AO Vortex has been used the least but I am very comfortable with it, and it will get more use as a open FOV shooter whenever I finally settle on a rifle for that use. Right now it's sitting on a 7Rmg that I've decided not to use, and will get moved to a 24" barreled M70 270 for the coming season.
FWIW I picked up a Minox ZA3 AO 1" 4-16x44 and it is a surprisingly clear scope and the best of the bottom end price range scopes I've ever shot...and will go on a loaner/back up short/carbine length rifle eventually of whatever my primary caliber rifle becomes. Biggest issue with it is the Short Mag kinda tube length available for mounting rings to get the proper eye relief with its 4" ER available. JMHO & everyone's eyes are different from mine.
Bottom line...I will not go back to a 1" tube & 40mm objective as the 44mm objective is sufficiently larger enough for my ageing eye that will need a lense replacement eventually, and a 2-10 magnification is adequate for my shooting skills at the distances I hunt at. Ron
It is TIME for Term Limits, cause Politicians are like childrens diapers and for the same reasons...Robin Williams "These are the times that try men's soul's"...Thomas Paine
"Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it" ....Santayana
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7138105
04/11/18 10:47 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,394
booradley
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,394 |
The negatives have nothing to do with weight for me.
Don’t roll those bloodshot eyes at me.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7138211
04/11/18 01:33 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,761
ccoker
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,761 |
I have done a LOT of very low light testing Assuming the same high end glass quality and comparing the same power range, a 50mm objective will give you a few more minutes of useable shooting time.
Same with a 56 over a 50 I hunted a lot with a 44mm on my main "deer rifle" with a Bushnell 3-12x44 LHRS and when going from Leica 10x42HD binos to the scope at last legal light I can still easily kill a deer out to several hundred yards. Now, we all know that easily killing one and being able to count points or if you are an MLD property with tagged bucks roaming around, that is a different story!
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7213122
07/01/18 04:52 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,762
cbump
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,762 |
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7213139
07/01/18 05:23 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,227
scottfromdallas
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,227 |
I thougt I read that ocular lense size determines FOV VS Objective size. Not sure if that is accurate.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7218598
07/08/18 03:01 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407 |
I thougt I read that ocular lense size determines FOV VS Objective size. Not sure if that is accurate. Negative Ghostrider, objective size. Come look through my 80mm objective spotting scope and see what you believe.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7218639
07/08/18 04:45 PM
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 224
Brandon S.
Woodsman
|
Woodsman
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 224 |
My understanding is that FOV is related to eyepiece construction, not objective lens size, like Scott mentioned. If everything else is equal (brand, eyepiece construction, magnification, etc...) a 3.5-10x40 and 3.5-10x50 should have the same FOV but the 50 would be brighter giving more shooting time.
For instance, the NXS 5.5-22x50 and NXS 5.5-22x56 have the same FOV but the 56 has larger exit pupil diameter making it brighter.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7218731
07/08/18 07:08 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,627
kmon11
junior
|
junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,627 |
FOV is more in the: Magnification More magnification less field of view. Grind of the lenses(all the lenses) affects what we see. (think fisheye lens in a GoPro. Eye relief distance is a big factor
Look out your window from say 10 feet away then walk up to the window, which position has the largest field of view? Objective lens aka. window has not changed size but as you get closer the field of view gets wider for what you can see out your window.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7218744
07/08/18 07:18 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,549
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,549 |
I think I once read something along the lines of "...everything about the design of an optic is a compromise of some kind."
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: kmon11]
#7218761
07/08/18 07:47 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407 |
FOV is more in the: Magnification More magnification less field of view. Grind of the lenses(all the lenses) affects what we see. (think fisheye lens in a GoPro. Eye relief distance is a big factor
Look out your window from say 10 feet away then walk up to the window, which position has the largest field of view? Objective lens aka. window has not changed size but as you get closer the field of view gets wider for what you can see out your window.
At 20X would an 85mm objective have more field of view, or would a 50mm objective have more field of view?
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7218837
07/08/18 09:02 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,549
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,549 |
From the link: https://www.cabelas.com/product/Spotting-Scope-Buyers-Guide/531809.utsField of View The widest dimension of circular viewing area observed through a telescope is the field of view. This is normally measured in linear feet at 1000 yards or in angular degrees. Since the field of view normally decreases with increased magnification, this dimension will usually be smaller for a spotting scope than for a binocular, with a typical range of from one degree (52.5 feet) to three degrees (157 feet). At close distances, field of view is much more critical, so this range is quite adequate for the medium to long distance observation. The minimum near focus distance is typically 20 to 30 feet.
Field of view is largely determined by eyepiece design. Some eyepieces are designed to deliver wide fields of view (wide angle) and these are very useful and popular for following a moving object, as in wildlife observation. As a general rule, zoom eyepieces will usually have a more restricted field than an equivalent eyepiece of fixed focal length. Eyepieces designed for long eye relief usually have more narrow fields of view. Field of view can also be related to optical design as in the wide field characteristic of a telescope with a short focal length. Compromise, compromise, compomise...
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: J.G.]
#7219028
07/09/18 12:31 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,627
kmon11
junior
|
junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,627 |
FOV is more in the: Magnification More magnification less field of view. Grind of the lenses(all the lenses) affects what we see. (think fisheye lens in a GoPro. Eye relief distance is a big factor
Look out your window from say 10 feet away then walk up to the window, which position has the largest field of view? Objective lens aka. window has not changed size but as you get closer the field of view gets wider for what you can see out your window.
At 20X would an 85mm objective have more field of view, or would a 50mm objective have more field of view? I think that would depend on the compromises made in the design and manufacture of the scopes. Take for instance these 2 leupolds, basically the same other than 44 and 56mm objective bells
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7219143
07/09/18 02:23 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407 |
I'll have a look this week at 20X. One with an 85mm objective, one with a 50mm objective, one with a 56mm objective.
But yall are saying it's the ocular lens causing FOV.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7219203
07/09/18 03:50 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,627
kmon11
junior
|
junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,627 |
Jason I believe you will find it is more a combination of things. length of tube and lens grind being a couple of them, Eye relief being another. Like RiverRider said Compromise, compromise, compromise. Take for example this case Biggest difference being tube length, objective diameter and power, But look at the 1.5X4 and the 4X12 at 4X the shorter tube with the shorter eye relief has the larger field of view. I believe these two have the same ocular lens but are vastly different in FOV. Curious what you will find with the 50 and 85mm scopes and what those scopes specs say. There is some liberty taken by scope manufactures on power and FOV numbers, very few exactly match the published data.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7219548
07/09/18 04:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
I don't know what you guys do but I use a very good pair of Binoculars to size deer up not my scope.....
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7219784
07/09/18 08:54 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,604
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
|
duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,604 |
One thing no one has mentioned in here is quality, although some mentioned lens grind and that is close. But the overall quality of a scope, lenses, coatings, inert gases, everything as a package, makes more difference than anything else. And quality doesn't always mean Big Names, or Big Price tags.
As for FOV, Tasco marketed a great 3x9x40 TV, where the view was TV shaped.... wider than taller... get one of those....
IF, IF, if, everything else is identical/eliminated, then the larger objective will allow more light to ENTER the objective lens, that's physics. However, there's no guarantee that the other factors involved allow any more light to EXIT .
It also depends on what you are hunting and when.... if I'm hunting wide open spaces, with more heat/mirage, or snow/ice, then I want LESS light into the scope....
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: JB1316]
#7220027
07/10/18 12:43 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,450
onlysmith&wesson
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,450 |
I have a VX-5HD, 3-15 x 44. I also have a VX6, 3-18 x 50(not HD). The edge goes to the VX-5 for low light clarity, although both are fantastic. It's slight, and mostly my opinion based on my use of these two scopes on consecutive days. Must be due to the HD glass. I have the VX6 50mm on my 5R Millspec that I mostly use from my tower blind. It's already heavy so no big deal. The VX5 HD 44MM is on my Tikka CTR, shorter, lighter more mobile rig I use when covering ground. I also shot this at the hunters challenge so I could really test it. I was pleased.
An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: J.G.]
#7220467
07/10/18 02:21 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,594
Skylar Mac
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,594 |
I thougt I read that ocular lense size determines FOV VS Objective size. Not sure if that is accurate. Negative Ghostrider, objective size. Come look through my 80mm objective spotting scope and see what you believe. Jason, you are not often wrong. However Field of View is controlled by the diameter of the ocular lenses. The larger the the lens in diameter the wider the FOV will be. This is most evident with the Vortex 1-6X24 Razor. When this scope was introduced, one of the complaints was that it was not authentically true 1X, more like .9X or .8X. Upon review, I see that it fish eyes some on 1X and that is a result of the over sized lenses within the ocular housing. As an example, check out: Konus 1-6x24 Konuspro M-30 30mm Riflescope https://swfa.com/konus-1-6x24-konuspro-m-30-30mm-riflescope.htmlLeupold 1-6x24 VX-6HD 30mm Riflescope https://swfa.com/leupold-1-6x24-vx-6hd-30mm-riflescope-2.htmlVortex 1-6x24 Razor HD Gen II-E 30mm Rifle Scope https://swfa.com/vortex-1-6x24-razor-hd-gen-ii-e-30mm-rifle-scope-178745.htmlAs illustrated above, increased sized eye pieces attribute to changes in Field of View and Eye Relief. Additionally, the weight is increased as well.
|
|
|
Re: 3.5-10x40 or 50?
[Re: Skylar Mac]
#7220814
07/10/18 07:32 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,407 |
Find me the ocular on a Gen 1 Razor, with a fixed 30X Mil reticle. Then on a NF ATACR 5-25X56mm. I'm not being argumentative, I just want to know is that why my field of view is so huge, in that spotting scope. If it's due to the ocular lens, I'll accept it. I'm not often wrong, but it does happen.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, txcornhusker
|