I know almost nothing about 1911's. I know a little about revolvers and a little more about semi-auto's. If I was going to buy a 1911, how much would I have to spend to get a "good" new one. $600? $800? $1000. For comparison, I currently shoot a Beretta 92FS and a 1957 Colt Model 357. I'd consider those "good" guns. I want something of that quality.

Are there any brand I should stay away from? I read some stuff about Taurus and Para having some parts breakage issues. But that could be disgruntled people complaining.

What should I look for that I wouldn't look for in a semi-auto? I'm sure it needs to fit my hand well, but other than that, I'm lost.

Anyone?

JMO. Springfield.45

I'm kinda partial. Just real hard to find any Springfield 1911's right now. Only saw ONE at the Gunshow last weekend. It was very used and I believe it was a Compact.45.

685.00 was his asking price.

Good luck with your search.

I own 2 Springfields. A Champion and a LW Compact.

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/829386/an/0/page/0#Post829386

Shane

Well, I'm not as knowledgeable as some here will be, and they'll chime in soon enough with some particulars.

But in general, I will say that my Argentine Colt is the best handgun I own. My Browning High Power does come in a close second, but it's still only a 9mm.

I've heard nothing but good things from every Colt owner I've ever known. The 1911 is still the most common platform used in competitive shooting. Parts for them are very easy to find, in either factory replacement stuff or custom performance parts.

All that being said, my Colt is outfitted with a buffer system instead of the standard slide spring assembly, it has a funnel type mag well for quick alignment when inserting the magazine, and a Beaver tail safety. The fella that had it before me had some porting work done to aid in faithful extraction/ejection. Mine puts bullets where ever you point it, at will. Wouldn't think of getting rid of it. She's my baby.

I'll step aside now for the real handgun crowd to weigh in here.

Jay

Everything you want to know and more about 1911's

http://forums.1911forum.com/

Shane

Kimber.

I have a Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry 45 and a Kimber Stainless Target II 45. Those are my favorite 1911's and they both shoot great with no malfunctions!!

I have had many 1911's. As a hobby I buy and trade about every fun to shoot handgun that there is. I have had numerous so called name brand 1911's including Colt, Kimber, and Springfield Armory. I bought a brand new Springfield Armory off this forum two weeks ago and passed it on to a close relative that just had to have it.

I think 1911's are about like the old Chevy advertisement, "baseball, apple pie, and Chevrolet." You just have to love them. I am as patriotic as anybody, and to me if you are a patriotic gun owner you own or shoot 1911's.........for fun, sport, etc. and THAT IS IT!

If your life depends on a second shot you better have a “post 1911” name brand modern pistol, such as a Glock, Sig, Springfield XD, or H&K, and not necessarily in that order.

You don’t see ads for the modern pistols advertising polished, throated feed ramps, lowered ejection ports, etc. like you see for 1911’s. Modern guns do that to start with. That is what makes them go bang twice in a row dependably!

The exception to that is if you are the person that cleans your defense gun weekly, which practically very few of us do. The person that does that can quite well depend on a name brand 1911. The rest of us can leave the above-mentioned brands on the shelf collecting dust and depend on them to shoot until we run out of loaded magazines.

Don’t get me wrong, I like 1911’s, but for the pure nostalgia and fun of shooting them. However, if the bad guy ever breaks down the door, I’m grabbing something that I know will dependably function without jamming----most likely a GLOCK!!!

I recently got a RIA 1911 because I wanted the classic version. If you want the true to form classic version I would recommend this one, it shoots great and was under $400. If you want one with the bells and wistels or a tactical model then get a higher end one but you could easily spend $800 - $1200 depending on what you want. My low end version is reliable and accurate, just not very fancy.

I've got a Colt 1911-A1 and absolutely love it. It shoots beautifully and is extremely accurate.

I saw RIAs in 3 sizes at the last gun show. 389.00. I wish I had been all over it. When I decided to buy the best price I could find is 439.00.

Seemed like a really heavy dury type 1911. No frills just action.

I have a taurus 1911, and even though it is not a kimber, colt or springfield it is still probably the most accurate and flawless gun I have ever shot... I absolutely love it.

(I do have an XD in the nightstand though)

I am no expert. My personal rating scale is just my opinion.
1. Wilson, Les Baer (1911 only, their AR's stink it up,IMO)
2. Kimber
3. Colt, Springfield

As to reliability issues, the 1911 has them. Get a good gun from a good maker. Shoot it a lot to make sure it goes bang every time. I love almost all 1911's. But, they are not as inherently reliable as a Sig or Glock. If anyone tells you differently, I will be happy to show them all of my receipts from sending 1911's all over the country to have reliability work done over the past 20 years. If the 1911 was reliable, every 1911 shop in the country would not advertize a "basic reliability package".

I do have the Beretta 92FS ready to go at all times. That thing goes bang every single time. So does my Rem870.

The 1911 I want will just be to have something different, and classic-ish, in the safe. I saw a VERY NICE Ed Brown custom in a magazine. I'm sure that would work. I'm also quite sure the $2500 price tag would NOT work.

So what I'm looking for is a good gun from a good maker that won't break the bank. I really don't even know what the bank should be, $600? $1000? I guess I'll just have to keep researching and picking them up until something speaks to me. Then I can save the pennies and go get one. Luckily I'm in no hurry.

Keep the info comin', please.

Quote:

---

I am no expert. My personal rating scale is just my opinion.
1. Wilson, Les Baer (1911 only, their AR's stink it up,IMO)
2. Kimber
3. Colt, Springfield

As to reliability issues, the 1911 has them. Get a good gun from a good maker. Shoot it a lot to make sure it goes bang every time. I love almost all 1911's. But, they are not as inherently reliable as a Sig or Glock. If anyone tells you differently, I will be happy to show them all of my receipts from sending 1911's all over the country to have reliability work done over the past 20 years. If the 1911 was reliable, every 1911 shop in the country would not advertize a "basic reliability package".

---

Do what I did and get one of each. I've shot the XDm 9mm more and it has had zero failures. The Kimber has had its share of issues, although now that I've started using a different magazine it has been 100%. I love shooting the Kimber. Shooting the XDm is just boringly reliable. I would choose the XDm if my life depended on it, but the Kimber gets my adoration.

If you get a 50s era Colt, you should be OK.

Most of this "reliability" stuff came after common manufacturers kept the "1911" nomenclature but changed the actual specs of the weapon, most notably with Colt's series 70 model, but others have made a variety of changes. The actual 19911 design is for a military sidearm designed to spew ball ammo reliably when subjected to combat conditions.

The original design was not designed to feed wad cutters or hydra shoks, or anything of that nature. The original ramp design is made specifically for ball ammo. Winchester silvertips and the new alphabet soup name for black talon have the same ogive as ball ammo and feed quite nicely with no modifications to any competently made 1911-type pistol.

The original design did not include the various sorts of modifications to the barrel and bushing, in particular, that most (all?) guns today incorporate for the sole purpose of improving accuracy. The accuracy level demanded by range shooters exceeds the government's combat standards for the 1911. The 1911 was not meant to drive tacks. The original rattles quite a bit if you shake it because it has a lot of slop built into all the tolerances specifically for reliability but also specifically sacrificing accuracy.

Pretty much everything that anybody needs to do to a modern 1911 is to repair the insult and damage done to the original design to please civilian marksmen.

Here's a good, short discussion on the topic:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=15201

Some makes are better than others. Within makes, some examples are better than others. If you buy a "gold cup" designated piece or other race horse type 1911-styled weapon, there is probably little that you need to do to it. It will be very reliable [edit: list of caveats extended] as long as it is clean, lubricated, and loaded with whatever ammunition type it was throated to load. If it jams at the range, it will jam in an emergency: these pieces sacrifice reliability for accuracy.

If you buy a "GI" type piece, that can mean anything from "original 1911 specs" to "we didn't do any of the finishing work, so you'll need to spend a few hundred more dollars on this one." One of the major reasons for the military's stepping away from the 1911 design was the cost to manufacture and to train, not the combat performance or reliability of the weapon. Properly made, the whole piece is machined. Nearly all modern variants include plastic and/or molded components. The Colt series 80 and beyond has a firing pin block and you will find various other changes for the pelosi crowd on different makes and models.

Colt went to heck in a hand basket with the series 80 model. A lot of stove pipe problems in examples I have seen personally.

Pre series 70 is generally the good stuff. The Colts made in the late 50s to mid 60s are treasured as some of the best due to the combination of metalurgy and peak performance of the war-era employees before they all retired.

Springfield enjoys a good reputation. Kimber is generally considered top shelf but it also costs a lot.

Because you are looking for a piece for your safe, you should establish if you want a military or civilian piece to begin with. A singer sewing machine war-era .45 ACP in mint condition will set you back a few bills.

I copy and pasted cause it was difficult read under the backgound. Link below.

Shane

Choosing a 1911 for duty? Before we begin our discussion, it is important to understand that the requirements for a duty 1911 are significantly different than those of a 1911 used for competition or CCW. What is acceptable for one application is not necessarily desirable or even appropriate for another. A competition gun will typically expect to see a very high round count but relatively little actual carry. A weapon selected for CCW use by a private citizen can expect to be carried only in a concealed manner, and not typically exposed to weather and impact in the same manner as most duty weapons. By its nature, a competition or CCW gun tends to be at the center of its owner's attention, as it is a special and singular tool. Depending on the LEO's assignment and duties, the duty pistol may be only one of many pieces of kit requiring maintenance and attention at the end of the shift or mission. The adage of "just take care of your gear" has a different meaning for an officer assigned to a tactical unit, as the pistol may be competing for maintenance time with a host of other critical equipment such as body armor, helmet, gas mask, eye protection, duty rig, radio/commo equipment, primary entry weapon, secondary/specialty weapons (breaching guns, sniper weapons, gas delivery platforms), and other specialty equipment. Ideally, the duty 1911 should not require a disproportionate amount of maintenance time for the end user with such an assignment.
So which 1911 to choose for duty? Agency policy permitting, your budget will pretty much determine what you can have in your duty holster. Remember that these things will ride in an exposed holster and be subjected to rain, sweat, constant handling, and the hard knock life of being around work vehicles, concrete walls, and gun lockers at the jail. Further, if you are involved in a deadly force incident, your 1911 may be held as evidence for some period of time. You may want an identical backup in the event that you are off admin leave and back on the street without your original pistol. If you are choosing for a department or team, this can also change things for you. Lastly, if you are a diehard 1911 aficionado, you should be ready to accept that you could buy two to four of any other modern service pistol for the price of one 1911 that is good to go. You will not find any true bargains, nor should you be looking for one when your safety or that of your men is on the line.

First off, if you are truly serious about running a 1911, it needs to be a full sized 5" gun in .45 ACP. There certainly are any number of examples of Commander and other compact 1911s that work or can be made to work just fine, and for CCW use they can be a viable option for some users. However, take a look at the history of unit issue service 1911s - LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEUSOC, FBI HRT, FBI SWAT, and let's not forget over 95 years with all the branches of the U.S. military - and you won't find ANY major units that use anything other than the original full sized gun. Why? After you field 50 or 350 guns at once and run thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds through them during training cycles, you'll figure it out. By virtue of their design, the shorter format 1911s reduce the window of functional opportunity for the magazine and slide to work together to feed, chamber, extract, and eject. This is an incontrovertible fact of life. Proper weapon setup, spring rates, and magazine maintenance are critical in running the shorter guns. Keeping after a few 1911s as a single hobbyist or aficionado is different than running a bunch of guns for a large unit. Remember that weapon down time equates to lost training and operational time. You want to minimize your maintenance issues, not increase them. Lastly, a full sized 1911 is very arguably a more efficient shooting and ballistic delivery platform than a smaller sized variant for the majority of users.

Here are the basic specifications to examine for a duty 1911:

•Full sized Government Model 1911 format with 5" barrel length and steel frame for increased reliability and durability.
•Chambered in .45 ACP, as that is the caliber in which the gun was designed and functions best. The greatest number of magazine options are available in .45 ACP.
•Standard Browning barrel without integral feed ramp. Ramped barrels typically have very steep feed ramps that don't feed well. Wide mouthed hollowpoints can also catch at the bottom of the integral ramp, creating further feeding issues.
•Standard milspec short recoil spring guide rod and plug.
•Recoil spring rating of 17-18.5 lbs to improve durability with full power duty loads.
•Availability of ambidextrous safety for left handed users.
•Type of firing pin safety system, if any. See below for further.
•Light rail or standard dust cover.
•Type of finish.

The quality of the factory components will come into play when looking for a gun to use more or less out of the box. MIM (Metal Injection Molded) components, which have received an excess of attention in recent years, tend to vary in quality like anything else, but they can generally be expected to have a useable service life of 5,000 to 10,000 rounds. Some quality MIM components work exceedingly well, and I personally have witnessed a large number of guns with MIM small parts where service life has exceeded 30-40,000 rounds. Budget grade small parts that are "good enough" for a hobby level gun that may not get used very much are unacceptable for a service pistol where we should reasonably expect a service cycle of 3-10,000 rounds per year for 3-5 years. Be honest with your math in calculating your round count, as this article is meant to help you choose a reliable service weapon, not a fun time plinker for Sundays at the range.

Firing pin safeties typically fall into the Colt Series 80 pattern which are actuated by the trigger (Colt Series 80, Para Ordnance, Sig GSR) and the Swartz style safety which is actuated by the grip safety (Kimber, Smith & Wesson). Of all the firing pin safety mechanisms on the market, the original Colt Series 80 - in a Colt - is the most reliable of them all. The platforms utilizing the Swartz safety are a less than ideal choice across the board due to the inherent reliability problems of the design. The Swartz safety is extremely sensitive to the fit of the grip safety to the frame and the timing of the grip safety's trigger blocking arm. Tolerance issues can also lead to a Swartz safety that will time properly when the grip safety is depressed a certain way, and time differently when depressed a different way. This will typically be a product of loose fit of the grip safety to the frame tangs and/or loose fit of the thumb safety shaft through the grip safety. It is possible to have the grip safety timed such that the trigger will be able to release the sear well before the firing pin safety plunger has been moved far enough to clear the firing pin. Problems with improper timing of the Swartz safeties can lead to a situation where you get a "click" when you wanted a "bang." That's a serious problem. Unless department policy mandates a firing pin safety, I would choose a 1911 without one. It is possible to have a drop safe 1911 without the firing pin safety, and given the potential reliability problems with a poorly executed system, the perceived risk of drop safety is outweighed by the real risk of a failure to fire.

My feeling is that a duty 1911 absolutely needs a light rail interface. There are a host of choices, all of which feature some variation of a Picatinny rail. As long as you use a common light such as the Surefire X200, you will have duty holster choices. The ubiquitous Safariland 6004/6280 family is available for most of the common rail guns in conjunction with the Surefire X200 and Insight M3/M6 lights.

The finish of the weapon will be of importance for reducing maintenance headaches for the user. Traditional polished blue finishes are very pretty, but tend to fare poorly in humid or wet environments. If you are working out in the rain, it is usually not an option to stop what you are doing to either cover your gun or wipe it down with an oily rag. It is not unusual to observe rust forming right on the weapon during a long patrol or operation in a wet environment. For a carbon steel gun, I recommend matte Parkerizing as the bare minimum finish for duty use. Parkerizing is very functional and cheap to reapply when worn. For even better corrosion resistance, an excellent choice would be one of the various thermally cured spray on finishes such as KG Gunkote, Cerakote, Birdsong Black T, or Nighthawk Permakote. Remember that exposed metal will rust, no matter what the manufacturer of the finish claims. Matte stainless usually works quite well, but remember that the porous surface of the steel will trap moisture and can still rust if neglected. Matte hard chrome and some of the newer vapor deposition finishes such as Tungsten DLC offer excellent abrasion resistance and corrosion protection, but can be hard to properly apply and will need to be stripped and reapplied in the event of a weapon repair or rebuild. I prefer a simpler finish that can be reapplied without incident, as duty weapons should expect several rebuilds during their service cycle.

Now that we have addressed the various points of consideration, letís move on to available weapon choices. My recommendations, which follow below, are not meant to be a comprehensive examination of all the industry offerings, but rather my particular thoughts on certain 1911s based on my experience and personal preference.

For a factory light rail gun, the Springfield Loaded Full-Size MC Operator (PX9105MLP), with the green and black paint job, is a leading option. It bridges the quality between the Loaded and TRP grade 1911s and is an excellent value. These guns exhibit excellent overall build quality and tend to run well out of the box. The correct Picatinny spec light rail, corrosion resistant finish and overall configuration of the MC Operator lends itself well to duty use. The TRP models with the standard dust cover (PC9107LP Stainless, PC9108LP Armory Kote) are also excellent choices for a traditional format gun.

If you want to bridge the gap between a full blown hand built custom and a lower priced/entry level production 1911, the Springfield Professional is an excellent choice. I have seen a lot of these guns and have a few myself. Statistically, there are more of the Professional Models out in real street service than any other factory custom 1911, so the quirks are pretty well worked out. They have consistently improved since the original run of guns, and overall are very nicely done. They offer cleanly executed checkering (some of the best on a production type gun), a nice beavertail fit, a blended S&A mag well, premium grade components, real Novak sights with Trijicon inserts, and excellent accuracy from the match fit Nowlin barrel. These guns typically work very well right out of the box, though they should be monitored closely during their break in period. It is available in a standard dust cover format (PC9111) and with the shortened Operator light rail frame (PC9111LR). If you find one of these on the secondary market, it is preferable to pick a later production specimen that has the Trijicon sight inserts and pinned front sight. Very early (low three digit CRG 1xx serial numbers) guns had IWI sight inserts and no pins in the front sights. While these were good guns, the sight inserts do not wear very well and you will want to replace them with Trijicons. Each run of guns differs as to whether their ejectors are pinned or glued, but the Springfield Custom Shop will pin the ejector if you desire.

If you must have a Colt, your options include the new production 1991A1, Series 70 reproduction, XSE Government, and Colt Gunsite Pistols (CGP). The CGP seems to be out of production, but you'll still find them floating around. Given a choice between the stainless and blue models, I'd pick the stainless for ease of refinishing after some very basic modifications. If policy dictates that you need a firing pin safety, then choose a 1991A1 or XSE. The Colts have great small parts quality but their ridiculously sharp edges will probably need to be addressed to make life more bearable. Note that the Colts do not feature an integral light rail, and your most viable option for an attached light is the addition of a Dawson Rail Adapter.

What are the main pitfalls of running a 1911 for duty? Weapon maintenance and end user responsibility are the two big issues. The end user needs to be dialed in to the gun's quirks to be able to run it effectively. The day of handing out rack grade 1911s to the masses and using them for duty are pretty much over. A unit, team, or department that is looking at running 1911s needs to seriously consider having the following:
1) Two 1911s issued to each user, to allow for continuity when one weapon goes down for service. Lacking this, the issuing unit needs to have a pool of spare guns to lend out to users when a gun goes down for maintenance.
2) Dedicated and skilled armorer support. Being able to maintain the weapon is key, and it requires more than a one day armorer school to learn how to effectively change parts in this gun.
3) Transition training for the end users so that they may learn the unique manual of arms and proper maintenance of the 1911.

Magazines are a big issue, and users need to try not to become married to a set of magazines. When they stop falling out, stop locking back, or the first time they stop working, they need to either be addressed or replaced. The mags are the weak link, so get over it and throw them out when they give up on you.

Extractor tension is another problem, and stovepipes and double feed (Type 2 and 3) malfunctions are not to be tolerated. Replace the extractor when these start to occur, as retensioning the existing unit is only a temporary fix. I expect only a 5,000 round service cycle on a standard Browning format extractor. Some important caveats are necessary in explaining this very harsh and short service interval. Once the extractor is properly set up - and this may require a skilled hand for fitting as well as some test firing - the extractor should be good to go for its whole service cycle. Once it starts to let go, it is on the downhill slide and more problems will continue to surface. The first time you get a profound extractor related malfunction, don't shrug it off, you're going to get more. Certain brands of extractors will often last 10,000-15,000 rounds or even longer without incident, but I don't necessarily bank on that. If you perform routine detailed inspections and replace them every 5,000-10,000 rounds, you probably will not have too many headaches. Proper fitting is critical to extending the service life of the extractor. A properly designed external extractor would solve the extractor related problems, but the choices are currently limited and the track records of the designs vary in success.

Do you need to have your gun customized or worked over in order to carry it for work? Not necessarily. You really need to shoot the gun for 1000-1500 rounds, to include about 500 or more rounds with duty ammunition to have a good feel for what the gun is doing. Do not just put "200 flawless rounds" through the gun and declare that it is "completely reliable." That is not a statistically significant cycle of service. You may as well tell a race car driver that his car is good for that 500 mile race after you drive it around the parking lot once. You need to be able to fire 1000-1500 rounds through the gun without any malfunctions. Cleaning and lubrication every 200-400 rounds is an acceptable interval of maintenance while evaluating the weapon for suitability. The 1911 is a design that requires hand fitting for maximum performance, and while a hot rodded or tuned gun (by a skilled 1911 specialist, not your local range hack) will always be better in many ways than any factory gun, a stock gun will often do the job if the hand fitting at the factory was done right.

The 1911 is an aficionado's weapon, and still has a place in the modern arsenal for those who are dedicated to it. With proper setup and maintenance, the 1911 can serve you like no other weapon.

Good shopping and good hunting.

H

http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html

I've owned them all, and still own quite a few of them, and I believe the best bang for the dollar right now is the Taurus, It's not with my Gold Cups and springfields, but it's close and it is half the money. All my friends have one now, and some of them have thousands of rnds in em without probs. just my .02

The whole "affocionado" line was generated by people who, without being up front about it, simply abandoned the original intended use of the piece and modified the design and then complained about performance. Deatiled information on the original research and testing leading to the .45 ACP round and subsequent competition among pistol designs leading to the Colt/Browning selection for the M1911 military pistol is hard to find. That has made it easy for misinformation to spread and take hold as fact.

The Colt/Browning M1911 was originally designed specifically to be reliable, above all else. It was tested after being subjected to an acid bath, to being submerged in mud, and a variety of other things you would never purposely inflict on your pistol. It was expected to cycle and fire out-of-spec ammunition. A requirement of the pistols submitted in the competition for the government contract leading ultimately to selection of the Colt/Browning submission was compelte interchangeability of parts.

All this talk about hand fitted components and so forth stems from making the firearm more accurate than it was designed to be to satisfy non-military paper plinking interests that have very little to do with the original design and intended use.

Here's a pretty good blurb:
http://www.m1911.org/full_history.htm

I'm not saying that if you go get one off the shelf that it will be flawless. Mostly I'm saying that if you go get one off the shelf, it won't actually adhere to the orignial design standards of Browning, which will cause some problems in reliability.

I have never heard of any reliability complaints from the Korean and Vietnam war veterans that I personally know or have had the pleasure to know who relied on the piece for their life. I had a teacher who served in WWI and he never had a bad thing to say about his service .45.

This has to be one of the more extensive online sources I've ever seen:
http://www.sightm1911.com/1911%20History.htm
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test

If you dig aroudn for old books and government docs, you can get better.

1905 trials:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_53/ai_n27126481/?tag=content;col1

Militaryfactory crows about the reliability of the military edition of the weapon in combat conditions:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=12