Let's enter into a discussion about shooting pen raised birds. I've shot a good many at NSTRA and a few on a couple of invitations. I seldom shot any for training. I found that it just was not necessary. I recently sent a link about a canned hunt to a friend who is a contributor to Pointing Dog Journal. Here was his reply;

"I'd be embarrassed to post that.....I walked over 50 miles to harvest 6 Roosters and 14 Bobs. Yeah, you could maybe double those numbers if it didn't take my pup Kate three full days to finally figure out wild birds but hey....that's the whole point of it right? Wild birds training your dog for you....

Anyway, no vehicle problems, only two arrests at the hotel (pot smokers too dumb to do it outside) and all kinds of weather from 60 MPH winds to snow and everything in between. Allie at 13 still held her own...proud of the old girl.

I just got home a few hours ago.

I'm glad an honored you still keep in touch."

My friend with the Red Setters says it gags him. What say you?

If it were my only option, I'd do it. I hunt pen raised state released pheasants. It feels wrong and it's a circus with all the people. I go out for sharptails, huns, and chukar and never see a soul. I will say if you like perfect dog work all the time pen raised will keep your blood pressure down. It's not for me, but I wouldn't look down on someone if that was their thing.

I had a Johnny house for years. The quail became precious to me. I had this one rooster that was the best training quail I've ever seen. My friend and I named him Rocket. We had to catch our birds and plant them, but not Rocket. Rocket would fly out on his own to a perfect bush. We could only work Rocket once. He would flush as soon as we passed the pointing dog and fly back to the funnel.

Rocket got sick and died. I buried him rather than throwing him on top of the Johnny house.

When you hit a certain age, your dogs are past their prime, shooting is shooting. Don't look down. You'll be there.

I dont even see a reason to use them for training. Weak flyers looking to die

Ha I liked your story about rocket. I feel the same way about quail. When I see a huge covey I think god has blessed me for the day. I like hunting wild birds mostly cause when we find multiple big coveys life is great.

When you hunt pen raised quail it's just not the same but it's still fun. I'm a member of Austin gun club and like to go out there. I don't know where they get their quail but it's tough to tell the difference. The only thing is you don't get huge coveys and you know your going to find them. I rather enjoy coming out after a corporate group has been there. We hunted a field yesterday that was hunted a few day earlier. She said they dropped 40 quail 12 chucker and 4 pheasant. They used flushing dogs only and she said they didn't do well.
We went in with our young dogs and found 19 quail 8 chucker and 2 pheasant. The birds were in all the rough land around the pasture where they were planted. It was so fun. We didn't hold back like we do with wild birds. 12 gauge autos with 5 shells loaded. I think the dogs loved it to. Pen raised hunt are fine in my book but it's got to be done right.

I just wanted to add one pheasant ran over a hundred yards before they pinned him. The quail would run to. They don't run like wild birds but they do run. That's what I mean by it's got to be done right. The grass and brush have to be what birds would actually want to be in so they can run or hold. I've seen other places where they stash birds in super thick grass and the birds chose to dig in.. That's not a good situation.

Not a thing wrong with shooting good flying flight conditioned birds.

No, the singles and doubles you find, don't deliver the excitement of a 20 bird covey rise, I agree...hunting the wild bobwhite with your dogs is a good as it gets for me, but train your young dogs on GOOD flying pen raised birds, and they will come around on the wild ones a lot quicker. They just get so many more bird contacts in any given amount of time.
That said,
It cannot be considered really hunting, in my book...It is great fun shooting, and invaluable dog training.

It is two different hunts:

Wild Bird Hunting; you have no idea how many birds your dog walked by or never smelled. I have hunted behind guides just because I did not like the way they worked their dogs more worried about covering ground than hunting. Shot my limit with an ease and left.

Place birds are an easter egg hunt. You put out 8 birds you work your hinny off to find 8 birds.

I grew up in Eastern Colorado and Kansas. Every time I have taken my dog hunting there we are done in short order. It is about hunting the right habitat. Wild bird hunting is more about the hunter and less about the dog because a good hunter is going to put his dog in the right place to be successful. Placed birds are about the dogs nose because it make less since where the birds are placed. Lots of placed birds are not natural. The dog has to work to find the birds. You also have to hunt on good plantations.

All the people i know that like shooting limits and shooting birds on the ground I really suggest they hunt pen birds rather than go on wild bird hunts.

I was not talking about "placed birds". I was talking about releasing birds in a pasture, allowing them to locate where they feel comfortable, and then coming back for the "hunt". Just seems a little more realistic to me, if the birds are given a chance to orient to whatever they will. Teaches the dog to hunt objectives too.

On a Kansas hunting trip in a bar full of local bird hunters the bartender sat with me for a while. I asked him what the secret to wild bird hunting was. His first two sentences were the best wild bird hunting advice I have ever received. "Always believe there is a bird in front of you". And "Always be ready". For those of us hunting over a dog I am adding a third sentence. "Always believe your dog".

At Matador recently with my Vizsla Dash we were at the farthest area I wished to walk to and needed to turn back. Dash got birdy and had already worked the area in front of me. He kept trying to come back in to my feet. I kept sending him on ahead. I needed a break from all the walking anyway, so I gave in and let him be while I got out some water and a snack for us both. He stopped 5 feet away from me and pointed. Suddenly 20-30 Quail exploded around my feet and startled me so bad I had no idea even what direction they flew. Those birds were hunkered down holding so tight in that deep grass that I am surpised I did not step on one.

I would rather have that moment than an walk up on released bird any day.

I hunted almost every Monday the last 4 years on my "placed" bird leases. The reason, I had them place 8-10 birds never pointed less than 20. It is pretty fun shooting clean up from the weekend.

I agree that with wild birds there is more surprise and adrenaline. If I lived where I grew up I would never hunt placed or released birds.

I mostly take guys pheasant hunting who have never been or, never been hunting in some cases. A flight conditioned pheasants still explodes out of their hiding spot and cackles like crazy.

Another aspect: I truly am not a great fan of hunting released quail or placed quail they do not get up high enough to keep your dog safe from new shooters. I have been lucky but know lots of guys/dogs that were not. I would not hunt a flushing/pointing team on placed quail. I do most of my own flushing for the shooters.

We used released birds when populations were so poor they simply did not exist in hunt-able numbers and the few we did find we refused to shoot or pursue. (It was a frustrating time in Texas)

I believe the birds we used helped train our dogs through that period and I'd do it again, if needed.
In fact - I'm thankful that those birds are available and legal to use for training here.

But, to each his own.

Looks as if we are all on the same page or at least reading from the same book.

I'd just like to add one thing about using pen raised birds for training. I prefer them because you know exactly where they are. You can set up situations like walking the birds in front of the advanced pup. A quail that has been trained for recall is worth at least three times the price to me.

Depends on how many head whips you give them...

I agree that wild birds will train a young dog better, but not everybody has access to wild birds to be able to do that. I am also grateful to have pen raised birds available for traing.
On another thought, I've seen when hunting seasoned dogs on pen birds,that had only pointed wild birds for several years, will start pointing pen raised birds really tight.

In my opinion, training with pen raised birds helps make your dog better on wild birds quicker, and is a very efficient way to start a dog or completely finish a dog (pointer or flusher) steady to wing, shot, and honor. Let's not forget about marking. Dogs also need to learn to mark the fall through various types of cover and terrain.

IMO, the best way to enjoy a wild bird hunt is to train and prepare for it.

As far as doing a hunt at a game farm vs hunting wild birds, there is certainly a place for both.

Not all pen birds are the same nor are all wild birds.

Dog is only as good as his ability to get out and hunt. If that means pen birds so be it.

When I lived in the OK panhandle I thought pen raised was kind of a wimpy way to hunt. Free land, plenty of wild birds, no competition, so why would you pay to do it? Now, in the middle of the Metromess, to be able to go work the dogs on SOMETHING is a blessing.

Hunting pen raised birds is lots of fun and great for young dogs and old ones. Pen raised quail is a huge business with many bird breeders raising 40 to 50 thousand birds a year. I would never hold up Quail Preserve shooting to the excitement of wild bird hunting and I believe it has a place in the hunting world. I get new hunters all the time who are thrilled to have the dogs working and lots of fast flying birds. I take older clients too old for the day long walks. I take youngsters out for a Close to Dallas chance to get their first introduction to bird dogs and quail hunting.

How about some Bird Dog fast competitions like on Bird Dog Wars. That looks like it could be some good fun.

I've never shot one. I'm afraid if I had a mess of pen raised birds I would just warm the grease and start popping heads. No shot in them that way.

Everything in life is relative------- everything -------- shoot pen raised birds or ---------------- what is the alternative??????? If the alternative is wild birds, I'll pick that -------- if the alternative is watching TV , then I"ll take the pen raised birds.

The only choice I have in North Ga. is to use pen raised birds for starting my young dogs. If I lived in bird country I would use wild birds. Wish I could time travel back to the good old days of youth when Mr. Bob was still my neighbor. You guys in bird country need to really be thankful for what you have!!! I drive 16 hours one way, 3 or 4 times a year to experience the glory of a Texas quail hunt, the roar of wings makes my old heart soar.


GA dog