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OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question #5340065 10/03/14 03:59 PM
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2000cbr929 Offline OP
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I want to take my SAKO AV in 300WM and make it into a long range shooter for steel out to 1000yds. I don't know where to start. The questions are as follows...
1. What round would you recommend that will be stable out to 1000 yds? I reload, but I would also like factory recommendations.
2. What barrel would be best and in what weight, and what twist to spin the round properly? Barrel length?
3. What stock do you guys like to use? I really don't want to use a hunter style stock.
4. Would you flute the barrel?
5. I currently have a brake on the rifle. Would you use a brake on a long range rig?
6. What gunsmith is capable of doing this kind of work with the talent to keep this set up a sub MOA shooter consistently? I can shoot, and I want this thing to shoot sub minute. I know there are factors that go into this whether human or ammo, but if I bolt that thing down to a bench and bag it in it should shoot holes through holes at 100yd zero.

I will likely go Schmidt bender with a horus reticle, or similar. What would be the best power range for that distance.

Overall weight is not a concern for the rig. I just want it to shoot.




After eating Payne's sausage I don't know if I can go back to the regular store bought stuff.

"Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money" Tom T Hall
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340080 10/03/14 04:05 PM
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If you are going to stay in a LA cartridge and you want to be able to buy factory ammo 7mm Rem Mag is an answer.

Kreiger, Bartlein, Rock, etc.. for a Barrel, match twist to weight

Stocks are like cars, find what you like and go with it. B&C, MCMillan, AI Chassis, etc...

If you don't care about weight no need to flute.

Yes, run a brake or a can.

We all have a favorite smith - only recommendation is to find one local (if there is a good one) much better than shipping off... develop a relationship.

Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340127 10/03/14 04:32 PM
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I pretty much agree with Dave. If you are not a reloader then you might be pretty limited on factory match ammo.

Never mind I see you reload. I would go 7mm or 300 mag and run.

Last edited by dee; 10/03/14 04:33 PM.

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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340161 10/03/14 04:49 PM
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1 - I don't like long actions or recoil so I'll defer to the others.
2 - All that depends on #1. I personally like no lighter than a Remington varmint contour and not real sure I'm going to like how thin it is.
3 - The TRG stocks are nice for a Sako...I'd start there then go with either a Manners or McMillian if that didn't work out.
4 - No, waste of money on a target gun...I'll burn at least a barrel every year and I'm not spending additional money. They do look cool and on a hunting gun I might because it'd last a lot long and shave some weight.
5 - Yep...see #1, I don't like recoil. I have brakes on my little 6mm's.
6 - I too like to deal fact to face with my gunsmith. If I lived where you do it would be a no brainer...Jon Trammel in Breckenridge. I use him for almost all my stuff and drive all the way across the metroplex and out there. Yep, he's that good....there are other good ones but he and I hit it off and I like him. Nothing worse than giving the money these guns cost to some jerk you don't like.

Good choice on glass...


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340282 10/03/14 06:16 PM
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I'll give the same answers my very qualified colleages gave.

1.Half the battle of shooting precision is your ammo. The ammo must be tuned to the barrel. Plan to load your own, period. To get good at precision takes practice, practice takes ammo, off the shelf ammo is expensive and will not hang with a tuned hand load.

2. If you want to stay in a long magnum then 300 Win Mag and 7 Rem Mag are the answers. 300 Win Mag with a 1:10" twist or 1:11" twist and 210 gr Bergers. 7 Rem Mag with a 1:8.5" twist and 180 gr Bergers. And that's what I hunt with. Both of those need a 26" barrel length, minimum. You DO NOT have to run a big magnum to shoot 1000 yards. A 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm-08 will do it all day long and be easier on your shoulder and wallet.

3.I'm a big Manners T-4 fan. I have three of them. That coupled with a Triad Tactical stock pack is how I roll.

4. As Judd said, no fluting on a range slut. The barrel will be done for in 2000-3000 rounds.

5. JEC Customs are the brakes lots of us use. I have one on my 6.5 Creedmoor and it's like shooting a 22 mag. Put a brake on it, no question. You HAVE to see your bullet arrive at the target so you see the hit or know how much to correct for.

6. Lots of wanna be smiths and some real good ones. If Judd recommends that guy close to you, you can bet your lunch money that smith is good to go.

7. I'm not a Horus reticle fan since I'm going to dial elevation in I don't need it and don't want it filling up the sight picture. S & B is top notch, no doubt. I see lots of Vortex Razors at matches, Dave runs one. I have an SS 5-20 Mil/ Mil, FFP and have zero complaints. FFP is a must what ever you get.


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340320 10/03/14 06:37 PM
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A 300wm needs a diet of 230gr Bergers.


"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: dee] #5340340 10/03/14 06:52 PM
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Sure could do that too. Run the numbers on that 210 @ 2950 fps and see what you see, it's salty! That would be if all you could get "right now" is an 11" twist. I researched it Wednesday for a friend that is going to be running a bone stock Tikka with an 11" twist. But if a guy is going full custom and gets a 10" twist then I'm always about as much BC as we can get.


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: J.G.] #5340375 10/03/14 07:17 PM
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All I can add is an AMEN for Jon Trammel in Breckenridge. He has done several jobs for me.


"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple.....and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340404 10/03/14 07:43 PM
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Thanks men...My plan was to use that 300 that is sitting in my safe. I never thought of getting the TRG stock for the gun. I have a TRG 22 in the safe right now of course it is .308. I have read the 1:10 is the twist that I want and you guys confirmed that with the 210's, and 230's Bergers. I am not sure how much money I would be ahead of just getting a surgeon action and starting from there. The big one in my opinion is the glass. I typically dial for elevation with all of my other rifles, but figured the Horus or like would aid in windage if nothing else. I might be smart to call John, and get his input on direction with the long action.




After eating Payne's sausage I don't know if I can go back to the regular store bought stuff.

"Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money" Tom T Hall
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340410 10/03/14 07:47 PM
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I don't shoot near as much of any of these other guys, but when I took Jason's class using just the MIL/MIL reticle I was able to hold wind and elevation with no problem. The Horus reticle is just way to busy for my liking.

Have you thought about maybe using the TRG22 you have and rebarrel it to a 6.5 CM?


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340429 10/03/14 07:58 PM
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if you wanted to stay with the long action you could look at a 6.5x55

Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340472 10/03/14 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2000cbr929
Thanks men...My plan was to use that 300 that is sitting in my safe. I never thought of getting the TRG stock for the gun. I have a TRG 22 in the safe right now of course it is .308. I have read the 1:10 is the twist that I want and you guys confirmed that with the 210's, and 230's Bergers. I am not sure how much money I would be ahead of just getting a surgeon action and starting from there. The big one in my opinion is the glass. I typically dial for elevation with all of my other rifles, but figured the Horus or like would aid in windage if nothing else. I might be smart to call John, and get his input on direction with the long action.


Honestly, I'd ditch the 300 WM idea and shoot the TRG 22 since you already have this rifle. The TRG rifles are a 1/2 moa or less rifle. I have a TRG 42 in 300 WM and love it. But the 308 Win rifles will easily get out to 1K with a good bullet and good load. Take a 175 Berger, 155 Scenar, 175 or 190 SMK loaded to a max load with some custom ammo, and you're there. If you just want more horse power, I understand that completely. That's why I have a TRG 42 and not the 22!

If you planned to upgrade the Sako AV hunting rifle, it will need a lot of work, which means cost. If you want to put the money into, then the 300WM will do better than the 308 obviously. But your existing TRG 22 would be exactly where I would start. What scope is on the TRG 22?


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: ChadTRG42] #5340479 10/03/14 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: 2000cbr929
Thanks men...My plan was to use that 300 that is sitting in my safe. I never thought of getting the TRG stock for the gun. I have a TRG 22 in the safe right now of course it is .308. I have read the 1:10 is the twist that I want and you guys confirmed that with the 210's, and 230's Bergers. I am not sure how much money I would be ahead of just getting a surgeon action and starting from there. The big one in my opinion is the glass. I typically dial for elevation with all of my other rifles, but figured the Horus or like would aid in windage if nothing else. I might be smart to call John, and get his input on direction with the long action.


Honestly, I'd ditch the 300 WM idea and shoot the TRG 22 since you already have this rifle. The TRG rifles are a 1/2 moa or less rifle. I have a TRG 42 in 300 WM and love it. But the 308 Win rifles will easily get out to 1K with a good bullet and good load. Take a 175 Berger, 155 Scenar, 175 or 190 SMK loaded to a max load with some custom ammo, and you're there. If you just want more horse power, I understand that completely. That's why I have a TRG 42 and not the 22!

If you planned to upgrade the Sako AV hunting rifle, it will need a lot of work, which means cost. If you want to put the money into, then the 300WM will do better than the 308 obviously. But your existing TRG 22 would be exactly where I would start. What scope is on the TRG 22?


This too... I went out to 800 yards in Jason's class with Chads bulk 168 AMAX ammo out of a 16" 308 gas gun.


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340490 10/03/14 08:48 PM
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I'l be out there next week with the video camera! I just had my smith screw on my brake to my 308 Win barrel. I'll be playing!


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340527 10/03/14 09:08 PM
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This Jon Trammel must be good. Has some heavy hitters vouching for him...


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I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340589 10/03/14 09:55 PM
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This is my 22. It has a Nikon tactical something or other on it. It just sits in the safe, and I really hadn't thought of using it. Last time I took it out I noticed the Parallax dial would no longer move. What stirred most of this is while at Tac Pro the other day I met a guy that was shooting a 300 Norma custom that looked like something straight from the movies. He came out to check his zero, and some zero it was. He shot 100 yards prone five times for sure, but I guarantee you could only account for three rounds. Looked like a midget clover leaf. It renewed my desire to try my hand at long range. For me 600 yards is long range right now. I had really never considered the .308, and from reading I understand the .308 to be an 800 yard gun, but I may be reading the wrong stuff. That's when the bell went off that I had a nice SAKO AV in 300WM sitting in the back of the safe looking for a job and here we are.




After eating Payne's sausage I don't know if I can go back to the regular store bought stuff.

"Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money" Tom T Hall
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: ChadTRG42] #5340592 10/03/14 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
I'l be out there next week with the video camera! I just had my smith screw on my brake to my 308 Win barrel. I'll be playing!


Where do you guys shoot? It would be an experience to see this kind of shooting done in person.




After eating Payne's sausage I don't know if I can go back to the regular store bought stuff.

"Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, and more money" Tom T Hall
Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340606 10/03/14 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2000cbr929
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
I'l be out there next week with the video camera! I just had my smith screw on my brake to my 308 Win barrel. I'll be playing!


Where do you guys shoot? It would be an experience to see this kind of shooting done in person.


Chad's coming out to my place in Wolfe City.


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340664 10/03/14 10:58 PM
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308 may not be the best performer at 1,000 yards, but it might be one of the best teachers for 1,000 yards.

Few rounds are better for learning than the 308. You have a great tool.

Buy a better scope, and a bunch of cases of ammo and start working on it and having fun.

Learn to load really high quality precision ammo, or buy some of Chad's good stuff.

Bill Davison has one the best perspectives I've heard on learning long range shooting; the key to mastering 1,000 yards is to master everything - rifle, scope, ammo, and most importantly the driver - at 100 yards, and then worry about adding distance.

For starters as an initial evaluation of fundamental skills and equipment, try shooting targets with 20 dots at 100 yards, first 1" dots, then 1/2", and then 1/4". These dot targets will teach a huge amount about consistent form, the rifle, the scope, ammo, and the wind. Master 100, and then start adding the distance. The ability to hit 1/2" dots reliably and consistently at 100 yards will translate into the ability to hold - hold, not necessarily hit - 1 MOA at 1,000.

Mastering loading ammo is going to be as important as all of the other parts of the equation. So, start thinking about that as well.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.


Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340667 10/03/14 11:03 PM
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I have been plinking around with my 308 Win shooting 168 A-max loads. These are good bullets, but not the best for longer ranges due to the low BC. I would take your TRG 22 and put a good scope on it, and start there. If you need any match ammo, let me know. I can load up some 175 SMK, 178 A-max, or something like that with the powder accurate to .02 grains consistency, and that TRG 22 will come alive!

Tac Pro is a good place. I've shot many matches out there and know Bill there. There are a lot more places that offer more, though.


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340673 10/03/14 11:05 PM
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edit - realized Chad was addressing the OP.

Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340676 10/03/14 11:07 PM
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Here's a pic of my TRG 42 in 300WM. I put 2200 rounds down the first barrel, and it now wears a custom Obermeyer barrel pushing 225 BTHP's at 2802 fps.

Right now the front rifle (Surgeon 591) has my switch barrel 308 Win barrel on it, and has the brake from the 300WM on the 308 Win barrel.



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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: jeffbird] #5340683 10/03/14 11:12 PM
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Good stuff jeffbird!

Lots of truth in that post.


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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: 2000cbr929] #5340855 10/04/14 01:52 AM
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If you already have a trg I would spend my money on a good scope and bunch of ammo and shoot the crap out of that rifle and then put a new barrel on it once you can utilize the better ballistics. It doesn't get much better than a TRG.

308 might not be the best round these days but it will defiantly shoot much farther than 800 yards.
Walter

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Re: OK Fireman JG and the rest of you long range guys I have a question [Re: J.G.] #5341184 10/04/14 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I'll give the same answers my very qualified colleages gave.

1.Half the battle of shooting precision is your ammo. The ammo must be tuned to the barrel. Plan to load your own, period. To get good at precision takes practice, practice takes ammo, off the shelf ammo is expensive and will not hang with a tuned hand load.

2. If you want to stay in a long magnum then 300 Win Mag and 7 Rem Mag are the answers. 300 Win Mag with a 1:10" twist or 1:11" twist and 210 gr Bergers. 7 Rem Mag with a 1:8.5" twist and 180 gr Bergers. And that's what I hunt with. Both of those need a 26" barrel length, minimum. You DO NOT have to run a big magnum to shoot 1000 yards. A 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm-08 will do it all day long and be easier on your shoulder and wallet.

3.I'm a big Manners T-4 fan. I have three of them. That coupled with a Triad Tactical stock pack is how I roll.

4. As Judd said, no fluting on a range slut. The barrel will be done for in 2000-3000 rounds.

5. JEC Customs are the brakes lots of us use. I have one on my 6.5 Creedmoor and it's like shooting a 22 mag. Put a brake on it, no question. You HAVE to see your bullet arrive at the target so you see the hit or know how much to correct for.

6. Lots of wanna be smiths and some real good ones. If Judd recommends that guy close to you, you can bet your lunch money that smith is good to go.

7. I'm not a Horus reticle fan since I'm going to dial elevation in I don't need it and don't want it filling up the sight picture. S & B is top notch, no doubt. I see lots of Vortex Razors at matches, Dave runs one. I have an SS 5-20 Mil/ Mil, FFP and have zero complaints. FFP is a must what ever you get.
good to know about JEC


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
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