Details:
Ok guys, cue the Sinatra... I've recently experienced a rash of squibs, or more accurately perhaps - misfires - from a large batch of 357 Magnum handloads I created on my Dillon RL 550B. Just my luck that I loaded 350 rounds in this batch at one time vs the 50-100 or so I usually load at once. Squib 1 was a flash only, squib two was a pop-squeak, squib three was a Hiss-sizzle - quite slow and spooky.

Some facts:
Load - 4.3 g Titegroup (38Spl+P load) out of 357 Magnum cases with STANDARD CCI primer. Have fired several hundred of these from previous loading sessions with no problems.

This batch -- my largest batch - 350+/- rounds. Out of the first 35 or so shot - 3 misfire/squibs with bullet lodging in barrel of Gp100.

Define Misfire: Primer ignites, bullet lodges 1 in into barrel. One one occasion there was 2.3gr of unburnt powder lodged behind the bullet. So it wasn't a classic squib (no powder).

I tore down about 75 rounds -- measured them. All of them were at the desired weight 4.3 gr (with some variance due to powder adhering to inside of the cases - from case lube).

I had thought I had a powder measure malfunction and that I got light loads. But the fact that I obtained 2.3 gr unburnt powder from a misfired round, and that I have found NO light loads in the torn down loads leads me to conclude there is something else wrong. So what's the source of a 1:10 failure ratio?

Powder contamination. (?)

Potential Cause 1: Dillon case lube (lanolin in alcohol base) - I sprayed 2 squirts into a tub of 350 cases and rolled them around prior to loading (don't normally use lube)
- FYI Dillon is adamant that their lube does not contaminate the powder or primer.

Potential Cause 2: Water contamination: I use SS pins and wet tumbling. After cleaning, cases were dried in a wire basket above a fan for at least 2 hrs. Then placed in plastic tub awaiting reloading - 2-3 days.

Ruled out: Defective Primers (they've all gone bang and this would be a real long shot/huge failure ratio for commercial primers), defective powder batch (too many went bang w/no problems), light load (inspection of 75-100 rds, discovery of 2.3 gr unburnt powder in barrel)

Questions:

1. Anyone else have problems after using case lube - particularly the Dillon Case Lube?
2. Anyone else have issues using wet tumbling with potential moisture in cases going unnoticed?

I am leaning towards water contamination - but if so why so infrequent? I can't imagine the lanolin preventing the powder from igniting, but it might be the case as 1/10 could be cases with excessive case lube inside (though again, Dillon insists case lube is not the culprit)...

I don't really expect you guys to have an answer to why this happened (other than what I suspect) but if you have experienced something similar please do feel free to add something or make some suggestions. If you've never loaded a squib, as previously I had not - then hopefully this may add to your body of knowledge.

Next Steps:

1. Place greater emphasis on ensuring cases are fully dry before reloading. (Bought Harbor Freight food dehydrator to provide more consistent heating/drying). Considering using oven @ 170F and a cookie sheet for 1-2 hrs.

2. Spray lube into plastic bag - then drop cases into bag and shake around to avoid lube getting inside case mouths.

3. Dump powder measure back into plastic powder tub after each session (mine had been in the measure about 1 month).

4. Tear down rounds: Part of me wants to just shoot them as I am extremely confident that I don't have any 2x loads and frankly I'm curious to see if the 1/10 ratio continues or if it was just a fluke. But the conservative part of me knows the best route is to tear them all down and then swab case mouths with alcohol soaked cotton swab to remove any lanolin. I might leave a few lanolin "contaminated" ones and reload just as a test batch though.

The Squib with 2.3 gr powder packed behind the bullet (assuming some burned and or scattered at the range)



Note powder kernels adhering to cartridge side due to lube...maybe no biggie. Dunno



The Sad Aftermath of 300+ pulled bullets

I would think that the most likely cause of your problem is powder that is partially water soaked due to wet cases. Your drying process does not seem to be enough to remove all the water from the cases, based on my past experience. You said that one of the squibs was a "hiss - sizzle" that would indicate damp powder as the most likely cause.

Also you said that you had left the powder in the measure for about a month. This may be a large contributor to damp powder as powder is hygroscopic. It will absorb moisture from the air if left unsealed. We have had several high humidity days during the past month.

I have not used Dillon spray lube specifically, but I have used the (almost identical) Hornady product for years and have never had a squib or dud, so I don't think that is the problem. I don't use lube when loading handgun rounds.

I would suggest:

1. Dry cases thoroughly. Use the oven if necessary.

2. Put powder back in a sealed container after each use.

3. Go with the "lube in a bag" and tumble cases, just to ensure that you don't over-lube.

I hate to think what this episode has cost you in time, frustration and reloading supplies!

Hope this helps.

Reloader-7,

Thanks for the feedback - and yes -- I had to be careful to keep my tears out of the cases as I tore them down lest I get more water contamination

I suppose I'll fertilize the plants with the 1200gr of Titegroup I have in that cup. It's probably fine, but since I've come this far I can't bear the thought of making another squib due to lack of due diligence.

I think I must have not dried the cases enough, as you suggest as well. Normally I leave the fans blowing through them overnight, this time I did not do that though I did visually inspect them...

I am very skeptical however that hydrophyllic or not, powder in a closed powder measure inside a dry garage, can soak up enough atmospheric humidity to cause it to fail - over 6 weeks or even 6 months - unless perhaps you live in a tropical rainforest... still I have heard it's a good practice to dump the powder measure back - though it's a small pain to do so...

Lanolin inside the cases could cause a 'coating' of the powder kernels. Thats a lot of lanolin inside there if the kernels are sticking to the case.
Kernels have microscopic pores that control their ignition - clogging those with lanolin (as the loaded rounds get moved and rotated around from normal handling) is a real possibilty, and could hamper burn rate / ignition if enough kernels get 'coated'.

liquid Lanolin also holds 2x its weight in water. Your cases 'could' have been dry to start with, but the lube/lanolin carried bound h2o into the cartridges, which then got sealed by the bullet, with nowhere for h2o to escape. You also mentioned '2 squirts' onto cases - some of those droplets likely went directly into case mouths facing your dispenser causing just a few to have an excessive amount.

Also - if cases (or just some cases) had just a tiny bit water in them - just enought to coat the case walls, then you tumble lubed them with the lanolin, the lanolin could have 'locked' the h2o onto the inside case walls, along with the h2o that the lanolin it itself carries - which maybe why only a few rounds affected.

I would toss all that powder out, clean inside cases - then reload. I would also not get any of that stuff INSIDE the cases again.

First- what weight bullet are you shooting?
Second, if it's a 158 grain bullet or lighter bullet, then you are running a very light load (i.e.- too light). The lighter the bullet, the more extreme you are on the light side. You are shooting these in a 357 Mag case, not a 38 spec case. So you MUST use 357 Mag data with the titegroup powder, not 38 spec load data. The 357 mag case has a lot more case capacity than the 38, so you will need more powder. What it sounds like to me is you are not getting the powder to ignite right with the light powder charge. Water contamination, only you can answer that. I don't know your process and such and how likely/unlikely water would be left in the cases.

Titegroup is a great powder for reduced pistol loads, and low powder charge loads. But it is not a good powder for large case volumes and reduced loads. If you bumped up your charge to 357 mag data, you may see this improve. But I would go with a different powder, IMO.

Chad,

Thanks for that feedback, as it turns out I am using 125gr bullet. And I had considered the possibility of an excessively light load causing a failure to ignite.

But:

Titegroup is supposedly insensitive to location in the case and also recommended for these light loads - it's not a Cowboy Action load - it's right in the middle of Hodgdon's 357 Mag recipe for 125gr LRNFP (a good proxy for my plated bullet). So we can call it a 357 Load if you'd like - its labeled a +P load with 158gr XTP.

125 LRNFP:
Hodgdon Titegroup .358" 1.580" 4.0 1,055 13,800 CUP 5.4 1,274 22,800 CUP

Now granted - I didn't use a magnum primer so that too is an unknown variable but I am skeptical of the need for a magnum primer here, especially as its not called for with the same charge when firing as 38SPL+P.

As to using 38 spl loads in 357 Cases, I believe that to be a very common practice for a very,very long time - the 38 Spl case has way more volume than the titegroup will fill too, but I will grant you the 357 case is indeed a bit more. Nonetheless, it's a moot point anyway as the 357 load above indicates 4.3 to be just fine powder wise with titegroup.

So - I'm back to my original bag of uncertainties - it seems that perhaps at least three cases had too much moisture in them - from a combination of excess lube trapping unseen water or just have a tiny amount in the cases al by themselves - it's hard to definitively tell at this point.

I'm going to reload another batch when I have a chance, monitoring these variables, and see what we get.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

Oh, and as an aside, you might find this treasure trove of data very interesting. It details load results for thousands of rounds fired in lever guns using pistol powders and bullets - for example, I am interested in 35 Remington. They detail the performance of unique, Red Dot, Titegroup and many others in cases with significantly greater volume than the 357M. (of course Large Rifle Primer is used vs small pistol) but I think it shows Titegroup, among others, has pretty good performance characteristics in large volume cases.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Talan,

I did not mean to imply that leaving the powder in the measure would cause the problem, only that it would contribute to it. And any powder degradation is never a good thing. Also I read tales years ago of powder that was left in the measure causing the plastic tube to discolor or even cause deformation of the interior walls. So I have never left powder in the measure.

I think your corrective measures will cure your problems.

Rl

You are absolutely right on both counts. In fact I have a powder measure that is discolored from doing just that (not by me but by the previous owner of my 20yr old dillon press).

And it is always better for the powder to be poured back into the plastic tub. And probably even more impact fil is having a climate controlled reloading area rather than a garage.

Todd

I could also think the Dillon case lube could be an issue. I don't like using it, since it does take a longer time to dry. So, that could also be it. I'd switch up case lubes.

But I also wouldn't run this light of a load in a 357 mag case with titegroup and a 125 bullet. I think it's a bad combo. Your magnum cases are meant to be magnum, and they don't like being reduced, especially with a fast burning powder. I would switch to a 38 spec case and not use the 357 cases for the light loads if you want to use Titegroup, or switch to a slower burning pistol powder. Just my $.02.

4.3 grains is within the range of the load data with a magnum primer. Once you change to a standard primer you're outside of Hogdon's published tests. It sounds like you have tested enough of it to be convinced that with that bullet and in your gun it works to your satisfaction.
At this point you introduce the case lube and start seeing problems. Maybe there was some water introduced or not, but I don't like the way the powder remaining in your barrel is clumped together, and I don't like the way it is stuck around the inside of the cases you pulled apart. I can't tell much from your picture - is some of the powder in the cup clumped together too? I don't think it matters what the lube is, if there is enough of it to stick the kernels together I believe ignition will suffer.
If the inside of your cases are clean and dry you should be OK.

Enjoy!
Jeff

I don't think there was any powder clumping" in the powder packed behind the bullet in the barrell. Just packed

There were some kernels sticking to about 10 of the pulled cases. No clumps at all in any of the captured powder in the cup.

I think that it may be a combo of too
Much lube getting directly squirted into the case mouths causing an ignition problem.

I may never use lube again on 357. If I do it will be inside a bag then add cases and shake rather then spray directly into cases some of which were standing up.

T

I dried a bunch of cases overnight after SS cleaning. A few had water still in the primer flash holes the next morning. I now blow out every case and then let dry overnight. Its usually 2-3 days before I get to them after that. I never lube pistol cases (with the exception of the 30 carbine) when using carbide dies.
BTW, I have found that you need to check every case carefully to make certain that the pins did not stick in the flash holes too. I get 1-2 per batch of .357 or .38 special with pins lodged in the primer flash hole ( about 250 cases per batch). I imaging that would case a misfire too.

After stainless tumbling I always put my brass in the oven at about 175 F for a couple of hours. They come out dry.

Plastic hoppers on powder measures will react with powders and cause squibs. Years ago, Skeeter Skelton related his experience with this in a story titled "Skeeter's Cow Killer Loads." It was written with humor, but as a cautionary tale nonetheless. Always empty the hopper when you're through loading.

ASIC,
It's definitely a good idea to watch for stuck pins. using slightly bigger pins than the original version helps prevent this. The original were .041 as I recall the new ones are .047 and two side by side are larger than the primer pocket...

http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/products/media/stainless-tumbling-media.html

River Rider,

I'm going to add heat to my drying process - I had just used fans. And I'll empty my hopper. It's annoying to have to untangle Dillon's unwieldy hopper connections but I can personally vouch that taking down 300+ cases is more annoying

Whether it is your problem or not, I don't know. But I can't stand leaving case lube on my brass. I remove it in the tumbler before loading. One less thing to gunk up your cylinder / action / etc

To me the pictures tell the story. Poor case preparation causing contamination.

Just my way, but I never lube pistol cases nor do I wash cases that are not allowed sufficient and proper dry time. In fact I never wash 357 brass, just dry tumble and reload it.

Out of 1,000's of reloaded 357Mag rounds over the last couple years I've had 1 FTF and it was a bad primer.

Keep it simple.

I lube large pistol cases (38/357/44/45/etc), but remove it before loading

Those of you using lube on strait wall pistol cartridges, are you using carbide dies?

I never use lube on 45 colt or 44 mag with carbide dies.