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 Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: txtrophy85]
#5073765
04/16/14 04:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Ted Nugent is an appropriate spokesman for the HF industry. George Strait owns a HF ranch. if he has one, then its okay! Record books could always get guys like Noel Feather, Spook Spann, etc who have entered deer in the Holy Grail to be spokesman for them..
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people? ![[Linked Image]](http://neoswarm.com/images/Bug_Crawling.gif)
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: therancher]
#5073851
04/16/14 05:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,894
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,894 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: txshntr]
#5073904
04/16/14 06:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: therancher]
#5073905
04/16/14 06:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,170
Jimbo
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,170 |
I do have a P&Y record buck I took in 92. I have all the paperwork but I never sent it in. I've taken several since. I thought what's the point? There are plenty of bucks in the book that are way bigger than mine.
I believe in counting every point the buck managed to grow, and deductions are kind of silly and pointless, excuse the pun.
As for high fences that is up to the landowner. If you have a small place and high fence it you are only hurting yourself in the long run unless you are strickly going to raise livestock.
<<<<< Note my loc!
Last edited by Jimbo; 04/16/14 06:21 PM.
Thursday at 12:45 PM
#33
Once i learned that i didn't "NEED" to kill something, and that if i did kill something all the fun stopped and work began, i was a much better hunter.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#5073960
04/16/14 06:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem. Bottom line: Y'all just don't like the fact that not everyone shares your views and are mad about it.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#5073971
04/16/14 06:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,894
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,894 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem. I stand corrected. You should whine and cry about it, write letters, complain on an open forum, go to the meetings and protest, write your congressman, worry about what people think about "your" way of hunting... There are plenty of people that don't think using feeders is hunting. There are plenty of people that don't think long range shooting is hunting. There are plenty of people that think using a rifle is "cheating." Guess if you do any of those things, you should take up arms and protest as loud as you can. And gee...your very welcome for my insight. Glad I could help 
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5073978
04/16/14 07:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,894
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,894 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem. Bottom line: Y'all just don't like the fact that not everyone shares your views and are mad about it. They don't like being excluded from something because of the height of their fence...and most have stated they don't like PY and BC, or what they stand for....so, they are mad they are being excluded from an organization they don't want to be part of anyway  I am not against HF hunting, and no where near as much as you...pretty sure I have argued against you plenty on the subject...but I don't have a problem with a club or organization that sets certain standards that excludes specific means and methods. I bass fish on a 400 acre lake. If I catch a 30lb bass, it isn't eligible for any records because it is a private lake. Guess they don't think it is fishing...and I really don't care
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: therancher]
#5073981
04/16/14 07:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,800
dogcatcher
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,800 |
As of today I am no longer a supporter of high fences. 
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back.
_____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________![[Linked Image]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/usergals/2018/09/full-3152-162968-charge_air_assault.jpg)
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: txshntr]
#5073985
04/16/14 07:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem. Bottom line: Y'all just don't like the fact that not everyone shares your views and are mad about it. They don't like being excluded from something because of the height of their fence...and most have stated they don't like PY and BC, or what they stand for....so, they are mad they are being excluded from an organization they don't want to be part of anyway I am not against HF hunting, and no where near as much as you...pretty sure I have argued against you plenty on the subject...but I don't have a problem with a club or organization that sets certain standards that excludes specific means and methods. I bass fish on a 400 acre lake. If I catch a 30lb bass, it isn't eligible for any records because it is a private lake. Guess they don't think it is fishing...and I really don't care I do feel strongly about it. BUT I will point out that I have never started an anti-HF thread. Yet, when the HFers start a pro-HF thread and I respond with my views on the subject, I am the one accused of being divisive. As with so many things anyone who doesn't lick boots and agree 100% is labeled "divisive". Hint: if you don't like what you see-quit posting the threads.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5074038
04/16/14 07:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,251
Paluxy300blk
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,251 |
As with so many things anyone who doesn't lick boots and agree 100% is labeled "divisive". Hint: if you don't like what you see-quit posting the threads.
You nailed it. Perfect example of our political climate today. I am from a minority who doesn't think HF and feeders make for "sport" hunting. However, I'm not going to call names and shout down someone who feels otherwise. I don't claim to be a better man just because of my beliefs.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: txshntr]
#5074048
04/16/14 07:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538 |
Bottom line: Y'all just don't like the fa t that not everyone shares your views and are mad about it. They don't like being excluded from something because of the height of their fence...and most have stated they don't like PY and BC, or what they stand for....so, they are mad they are being excluded from an organization they don't want to be part of anyway I am not against HF hunting, and no where near as much as you...pretty sure I have argued against you plenty on the subject...but I don't have a problem with a club or organization that sets certain standards that excludes specific means and methods. I bass fish on a 400 acre lake. If I catch a 30lb bass, it isn't eligible for any records because it is a private lake. Guess they don't think it is fishing...and I really don't care never been about the exclusion its about condoning, i wouldnt shoot a bear out of a boat or a moose out of a raft, or hunt bears over bait, but I don't condone it and challege peoples ethics over it. Their are guys here on this forum that would never shoot a velvet mulie even if it was a new world record, yet they don't condone those that do. I see sheep posted all the time that where Gov. Tags or $$$$ landowner tags, what's fair about that. What's fair about hunting a 1million acre indian where there is no true season?
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: Paluxy300blk]
#5074051
04/16/14 07:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538 |
As with so many things anyone who doesn't lick boots and agree 100% is labeled "divisive". Hint: if you don't like what you see-quit posting the threads.
why bash HF that's pot calling the kettle blk
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: dogcatcher]
#5074062
04/16/14 08:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,441
TxDispatcher
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,441 |
As of today I am no longer a supporter of high fences. As of today, I no longer care either way Oh wait, I really never have  I don't enjoy seeing a buck that can hardly hold his head up because of genetic mutation, but I couldn't possibly care any less if someone else thinks it's the greatest thing ever. But I will never say that they shouldn't do it...it's just not my cup of tea
I will get off in a little bit You shouldnt have said that
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: rustedspurs4]
#5074089
04/16/14 08:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
you cannot paint what is fair chase with a broad brush. its up to each one of us to determine what is fair chase and what is not.
a $200 ram hunt that is very popular where they are shooting sheep brought in the week before from the auction is way different than hunting a patch of south texas brush that is surrounded by a high fence containing a native herd That is very true, and maybe they should look at modifying the enclosure rule with some kind of acreage limitation or some kind of reviewing official I dont know. But if they did away with the enclosure rule all together, then what is to stop some guy (or gal) from buying a "canned hunt" and killing the deer in the situation you descirbed above and basically buying their way into the record books. People buy themselves into the record book every day on low fence ranches.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: txshntr]
#5074101
04/16/14 08:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem. Bottom line: Y'all just don't like the fact that not everyone shares your views and are mad about it. They don't like being excluded from something because of the height of their fence...and most have stated they don't like PY and BC, or what they stand for....so, they are mad they are being excluded from an organization they don't want to be part of anyway I am not against HF hunting, and no where near as much as you...pretty sure I have argued against you plenty on the subject...but I don't have a problem with a club or organization that sets certain standards that excludes specific means and methods. I bass fish on a 400 acre lake. If I catch a 30lb bass, it isn't eligible for any records because it is a private lake. Guess they don't think it is fishing...and I really don't care Nope. Ted and I couldn't care less about clubs of any kind. This isn't about wanting to be in their clubs. Never has been. It's about the fight to protect all legal hunting. Read the words P&Y etc use to describe legal hunting methods. You literally can't tell if it's HSUS, PETA, or P&Y. When hunters fight with anti hunting groups to ban any type of hunting, all hunters slip further down that slope to all hunting being banned.
Last edited by therancher; 04/16/14 08:51 PM.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: Paluxy300blk]
#5074107
04/16/14 08:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
As with so many things anyone who doesn't lick boots and agree 100% is labeled "divisive". Hint: if you don't like what you see-quit posting the threads.
You nailed it. Perfect example of our political climate today. I am from a minority who doesn't think HF and feeders make for "sport" hunting. However, I'm not going to call names and shout down someone who feels otherwise. I don't claim to be a better man just because of my beliefs. You owe it to yourself to read more of NP's posts. He is more than willing to denigrate hunting methods that don't meet his standards. Which doesn't sound like you at all.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: txshntr]
#5074136
04/16/14 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258 |
Guess I see it different. P&Y, B&C, DSC, SCI, and all the other groups are simply clubs or organizations that are made up like minded people. Just because they don't believe what you do doesn't make them mad or the enemy. If you agree, join. If you don't, start your own or join another.
Just because it is easy, doesn't mean that isn't fair....this fact is lost on many If I don't like a group that refuses to call what I do "hunting" but instead calls it shooting... and calls both me and my practices "unethical"... The I just shouldn't join it??? Gee.. thanks for that wonderful insight into the problem. I stand corrected. You should whine and cry about it, write letters, complain on an open forum, go to the meetings and protest, write your congressman, worry about what people think about "your" way of hunting... There are plenty of people that don't think using feeders is hunting. There are plenty of people that don't think long range shooting is hunting. There are plenty of people that think using a rifle is "cheating." Guess if you do any of those things, you should take up arms and protest as loud as you can. And gee...your very welcome for my insight. Glad I could help Guess I shouldn't Join PETA, because they want to make what I do illegal too… What a waste of time it would be to get upset and fight them tooth and nail for trying to take my options as a hunter away. I should just roll over and let them have their way. What a joke.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: rustedspurs4]
#5074244
04/16/14 10:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,033
338ultra
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,033 |
I don’t know. I'm not sure I would go as far as calling hunting a high fenced place "unethical", but I do completely understand P&Y's position on it. I think the biggest people they're looking at aren't the people that have 1000+ acres in high fence; it’s the 100's of people that have small 100-300 acre high fence places. When you talk about places that are smaller than the average range of a whitetail it's hard to call it free range in any way. I don’t have a problem with high fencing or breeding exotics and whatnot, but I do understand why P&Y have the stance they do. And though there may not be any credible instances of disease transfer right now, the recipe is there. High numbers and confinement of animals is how you eventually end up with serious diseases popping up and spreading. Just my two cents, not worth much but there it is. I don't think you "completely understand" P&Y's position on it if you believe they are targeting the smaller HF ranches. Here is a quote from their recent position: strongly condemn the killing of big game animals in artificial situations. "An 'artificial situation' is defined as a situation where animals are held in captivity, game-proof fenced enclosures". No size distinction at all. I believe they said what they meant. And yes BoBo, there are boundaries to every hunting range. I think they see it as an all or nothing kind of thing, and where it may not be fair I understand thier reasoning behind thier choice. It's hard to support one while condeming the other. I'm not saying that everyone who has a high fence does it, but we've all seen the guy on the corner who got 100 acres, put up a high fence and now has 30 head of red stag (or whatever it is that they have) and they feed hay and supplement all year long because the browse and grass is all but gone. Then there are some of the bigger ones that are just as guilty (again not saying theyre all like this) but we all know of the ranches where you can show up get 5 star treatment go out the next morning they drive up in a new f-350 with a high rack on the bed. You drive out to where the animals have been lately and you shoot your choice at about 50 yards. P&Y may have a blanket statment and it may not apply to everyone, but there are a lot of people that it does apply to. You just described King Ranch hunting to a T. I have taken customers down there for a "hunt", drive up to the buck of choice, get out of the F350 and shoot said buck with a BOW!!! On the other hand I have personally hunted a 300 acre high fence for 2 weeks to kill the last 14 whitetail inside the fence and not see a single hair. Now which one is the canned hunt? I think a lot of opinions are not based on personal experiences.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5074263
04/16/14 10:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,830
Grosvenor
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,830 |
Ill never understand an artificial situation, if you are in access of the animals native range, how is that artificial.
I guess PINS, Giles Island, antelope island, the 3000 islands in Alaska, tiburon island is via their definition an artificial situation Those aren't man made. The high fence is an artificial, man-made barrier.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: rustedspurs4]
#5074288
04/16/14 11:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,994
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,994 |
you cannot paint what is fair chase with a broad brush. its up to each one of us to determine what is fair chase and what is not.
a $200 ram hunt that is very popular where they are shooting sheep brought in the week before from the auction is way different than hunting a patch of south texas brush that is surrounded by a high fence containing a native herd That is very true, and maybe they should look at modifying the enclosure rule with some kind of acreage limitation or some kind of reviewing official I dont know. But if they did away with the enclosure rule all together, then what is to stop some guy (or gal) from buying a "canned hunt" and killing the deer in the situation you descirbed above and basically buying their way into the record books. happens all the time on low fence places where people buy into the books by killing a deer that was patterned by an outfitter a month ahead of time If someone wanted to be in the record books bad enough, I guess making a min. acreage would suffice, but honestly, are we hunting for ourselves or for prestige?
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: Grosvenor]
#5074372
04/17/14 12:06 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538 |
Ill never understand an artificial situation, if you are in access of the animals native range, how is that artificial.
I guess PINS, Giles Island, antelope island, the 3000 islands in Alaska, tiburon island is via their definition an artificial situation Those aren't man made. The high fence is an artificial, man-made barrier. Barrier is a deterrent. A Barrier means nothing goes over or through. HF doesn't make the hunting easier or harder, the individual does by how they hunts. I've watched pronghorns run in a circle in a 120 acre trap in the panhandle because I was parked in the gate where the enter and leave the field. That fence wasn't 5' tall. So hunting a ranch with good cattle fences is unethical? 200" deer get shot on a local dfw COE almost every year. And every congrats and claps ect because it public low fence...but it is really low fence? Lake on one side and housing development 6miles plus deep on the other sides. Shooting a bear that lives on a 2k acre island is more ethical then shooting a deer in a 2k HF? What's next no one can fence their house, or can only have a 5' privacy fence in their backyard, no homes over 1200sq ft. No fences to the ground so rabbits can get under them?
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: 338ultra]
#5074384
04/17/14 12:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I don’t know. I'm not sure I would go as far as calling hunting a high fenced place "unethical", but I do completely understand P&Y's position on it. I think the biggest people they're looking at aren't the people that have 1000+ acres in high fence; it’s the 100's of people that have small 100-300 acre high fence places. When you talk about places that are smaller than the average range of a whitetail it's hard to call it free range in any way. I don’t have a problem with high fencing or breeding exotics and whatnot, but I do understand why P&Y have the stance they do. And though there may not be any credible instances of disease transfer right now, the recipe is there. High numbers and confinement of animals is how you eventually end up with serious diseases popping up and spreading. Just my two cents, not worth much but there it is. I don't think you "completely understand" P&Y's position on it if you believe they are targeting the smaller HF ranches. Here is a quote from their recent position: strongly condemn the killing of big game animals in artificial situations. "An 'artificial situation' is defined as a situation where animals are held in captivity, game-proof fenced enclosures". No size distinction at all. I believe they said what they meant. And yes BoBo, there are boundaries to every hunting range. I think they see it as an all or nothing kind of thing, and where it may not be fair I understand thier reasoning behind thier choice. It's hard to support one while condeming the other. I'm not saying that everyone who has a high fence does it, but we've all seen the guy on the corner who got 100 acres, put up a high fence and now has 30 head of red stag (or whatever it is that they have) and they feed hay and supplement all year long because the browse and grass is all but gone. Then there are some of the bigger ones that are just as guilty (again not saying theyre all like this) but we all know of the ranches where you can show up get 5 star treatment go out the next morning they drive up in a new f-350 with a high rack on the bed. You drive out to where the animals have been lately and you shoot your choice at about 50 yards. P&Y may have a blanket statment and it may not apply to everyone, but there are a lot of people that it does apply to. You just described King Ranch hunting to a T. I have taken customers down there for a "hunt", drive up to the buck of choice, get out of the F350 and shoot said buck with a BOW!!! On the other hand I have personally hunted a 300 acre high fence for 2 weeks to kill the last 14 whitetail inside the fence and not see a single hair. Now which one is the canned hunt? I think a lot of opinions are not based on personal experiences. The one where you know you're looking for 14 deer on 300ac.
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: therancher]
#5074398
04/17/14 12:18 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,538 |
You think there are 14 deer
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: therancher]
#5074406
04/17/14 12:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Since our place is 300ac, how many deer would you be looking for?
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Re: More high fence attacks.
[Re: rifleman]
#5074410
04/17/14 12:21 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Since our place is 300ac, how many deer would you be looking for? Get an MLD and let me come shoot them then I will tell you
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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