Why not? If there's nothing to be ashamed of and all us fair chase people are full of baloney, what is there to fear about an open discussion?

If you want the non-hunting majority making rules for the hunting community, fair chase or not, you either haven't thought it through very well, or aren't operating with a lot of horsepower.

I don't think you understand that their broad brush stroke morality is much different than your fine number 2 pencil ethical lines.

You ask them to remove the "wart" of breeding operations from our community's face... and they might just cut off the whole nose to do it.

Won't happen. The reason the discussions are even had that hurt hunting in the first place is because of the pens. Get rid of the pens, the negative spotlight goes away. Simple as that.

You are really that naive?

The HSUS understands exactly how they are going to conquer hunting as a whole. Simple activist methodology 101. Pick the easy mark first, hell, for no money at all they have hunters willing to vote against other hunters.

Death by a thousand elitist hunter aided cuts.

HSUS and FOA win easily because elitist (your trophy isn't valid and should be outlawed because you didn't kill it the way I did) hunters will help them. And make no mistake, they aren't just after HF operations. Their ultimate goal is no hunting at all.

The question to all hunters is, "are you gonna help them or fight them"?

I'm not naive. HF hunting is a black eye we simply don't need. Period. Non-hunters react negatively to it-as do many hunters. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why......

You know in all of these HF vs LF arguments I have a hard time seeing how everyone gets so worked up. So what if you don't like what other people are doing it's freaking America people do what you want to do. Don't hate other people for doing what they can afford, makes them happy, or are interested in.

The issue you never see brought up and this applies in all states where baiting is legal; is shooting deer over a feeder is shooting a deer over a feeder. It really doesn't make it that much easier or harder whether or not you know what animals are there or if they are enclosed or not. Shooting a deer off a feeder just isn't that hard sure there are challenges but either hf or lf is not that different.

Hearing all these anti hf arguments is obnoxious get over it. So you don't like what x factor looks like no one asked you.Nor is factor the standard for breeding operations. There are breeders who breed big healthy "natural" typical bucks who you couldn't tell the difference between that and one you saw on grandpa's farm.

I have never shot a hf animal but I don't hate them because really the only advantage is controlled and improved factors mostly in health and the knowledge that those deer are somewhere in that hf however small or large. I have been on plenty of HF ranches and Texas brush is Texas brush finding an animal even as big as an ELK can be hard on 200 acres(I'm sure someone will say Im an idiot but it's true)

Finding them at a feeder at feed times is just the same as a low fence. Im sure this will discredit my argument but if you think HF shouldn't be allowed you really should think any fence shouldn't be allowed. If deer are property of the state and you think hf shouldn't be allowed because of whatever reason doesn't that make you inline with thinking everything should be state property. Talk about socialism. My house is about air tight are you gonna tell me I can't keep that air in there because it belongs to the state or I'm keeping other people air away or some nonsense logic. If your neighbor build a HF that great your property just because flooded with wildlife leaving his and any future wildlife will be forced onto your property.

Sure you can discredit deer shot on HF because of so many reasons but in the end it's a sustainable way to hunt big deer which wouldn't even exist in Texas if not for human interference. Do you buy beef from the grocery store? If we only ate wild range cattle not from fenced production ranches not only our country but the whole planet would starve. If you think anything about a LF ranch in Texas is natural or close to it think again. I would like there not to be fence and coon hunt up and down the creeks and rivers all I want but it's not the way our world works.

If you have such an issue with fences maybe look into the old history books. Indians couldn't comprehend the idea of fences or ownership of land, they didn't think any land belonged to anyone but the earth. Our way of life couldn't work like that. If we still had migratory herds and tribes of hunters with no fences all the game would be long gone. If you like hunting you shouldn't have such an issue with HF it's turned into a mudslinging bloodsport as much as any politicians campaigns. Got to get past this crap..

Most people I run into consider HF hunting shooting fish in a barrel, which is far from the truth. It is many times no different hunting a HF or LF ranch when hunting a specific animal or class of animal. Additionally, with annual/season leases drying up all over the state, do the LF proponents expect outfitters to make a living charging thousands of dollars for a hunter to hunt a LF which may or may not contain the animal the hunter wants?

If a HF ranch meets/exceeds the normal habitat range for the species inside then what's the big deal anyway? Deer that have everything they require in food, water, shelter, possibility to mate, will not travel much anyway, and can spread a disease contrived my mother nature as readily as those in HF.

Hunters attacking other hunters' method of hunting is the black eye we don't need. If as you say, you think anti hunters are only or mostly anti HF hunting, you are indeed naive beyond your comprehension.

I didn't say "anti-hunters", I said "non-hunters", Mr. Comprehension.

I know all HF apologists want to act like it's not an issue, but the fact that so many have a visceral negative reaction to it speaks for itself.

It's strange that this one issue is very heated (articles against it, many states ban it, etc.) and your response is "let's not talk about it." And you have the gall to call me naive.....

Many non hunters don't look favorabley on bowhunting.... should we ban that also?
They also don't look favorably toward feeders, should we ban those also?
They also don't react positively towards hunters with big guts and beards, soshould we impose physical perception requirements?

You were making an argument that HF's threaten hunting by shedding a negative light on hunting. Non-hunters "who aren't anti-hunting" are no threat at all. So it's obvious that even though you said "non-hunters", you were referring to "anti-hunters", since they are the only real threat to hunting. I was just helping you out with a misnomer you used, and was correcting you as discreetly as I could... I'm a nice guy that way.

I never said or implied that we shouldn't talk about it. I said and implied that we shouldn't attack each others different preference in hunting method (how you could think I don't want to talk about it after all this dialogue is pretty amazing don't you think?).

We certainly should talk about how we work to help change the anti-hunters' negative perceptions of hunting. ALL of them as BoBo pointed out.

And thank you so much for all of your contributions to help make our "attacking each other's methods is counter productive" point. I couldn't have designed more perfect illustrations.

Red-herrings. You simply don't see the controversy and negative reactions to those things as you do to HF hunting. That's why many states (even states loaded with hunters like western states) ban HFs.

Well, should go without saying when someone professes to be me, changes my words, changes my meaning, changes my thoughts, and then proceeds to argue against the "me" that they have constructed, I'm probably going to come out on the short end of that discussion.

But it does show one thing: you do not have the tools to prevail in any discussion except one with yourself.

Not a red herrings, its the exact same thing hence no bear season in certain NE states, no baiting bears in some western states.
No baiting deer in some states.........
No mountain lion hunting in a west coast state....


You only use red herring when other examples are introduced that don't support YOUR ideology


HF is a private property right, what's next no hunting on aceage less then 100? 50? 20?

Semantics of "rights" aside, if it is a "right" it is one that can be taken away-which has been shown. So there is no absolute PP "right" to HF.

Semantics being expressed now are nothing more then a circle arguement to dodge/ exclude the rest of the things said above.

HF is a property rights issue. Just like private property access. ..

"Well, should go without saying when someone professes to be me, changes my words, changes my meaning, changes my thoughts, and then proceeds to argue against the "me" that they have constructed, I'm probably going to come out on the short end of that discussion.

But it does show one thing: you do not have the tools to prevail in any discussion except one with yourself."

Professed to be you? Narcissistic much?

Your words were conflicted, I just pointed it out and it stung a little.

That you end up short sticked in these discussions is not my fault.

You two play nice... left not make personal jabs

That's what always happens in these things- arguments are ignored/changed, names are called, and victory is declared.

Yes sir you did dodge the corresponding public opinion...twice now actually.

Some states have band bait for deer and bear. On top of that voted to close mountain lion and bear hunting.

I agree with rancher you are either all in or all out....

Well, you are both wrong then. I'm out on the pens. Doesn't make me out on the other stuff. As much as y'all think it's your way or the highway and everyone has to think like you, that just isn't the way life works.

ive got zero interest shooting bears over bait, but i sure not going to publicly denounce it. Shooting a mountion doesn'interest me the least bit, but I dont publicly slam it.

Pot meet kettle...... difference between you and I defend all legal hunting and I also realize public perception will always be against what they know nothing about, until educated about the subject

You'll get bigger bang for your buck talking to all those uneducated folks in the Quality Deer Manangement Association, The Boone and Crockett Club, The Pope and Young Club, etc.....

The fact that they are "all out" on hunting will probably be news to them too.