He's a professional wrestler.....

Well Kamron Horn, I didn't ask for his profession. I simply asked for his name, for him to own his comments to the world about a man he's never met. I didn't even ask him to take them back. He is entitled to any opinion he wants. I'm not the speech police here. Half of the guys on the post, including you, were knocking me and then trying to sell a dog in the process.

Never knocked you once, but that's okay, perhaps you would call it irony...

And using my name doesn't bother me....

That's good. That's how it should be.

My name is Cory.

Hi Cory, now don't you feel better....

And for the record there's a clear and distinctive difference between knocking some ones business and stating facts....

I agree, and I do feel better thanks. I think the most valuable lesson here is research. A dog is an investment of money, time, and patience...among other things. Just like a car or home you have to do your research or kick yourself down the road. Owning a dog is a great responsibility and me personally I hold the breeders to great standards as well.

ACTUALLY Mr Dark Timber there is a thing called Entry Express that tracks the results of HT's and FT's. They are entrusted by the National Retriever Club to do so
They list the dogs that placed in FT's and also keep track of HT results

For HT's they list "PASS" for the dogs that met their minimum standards
For dogs that didn't meet their minimum standard they either list "FAIL" or they leave it blank
For dogs that didn't run the test they list as a "SCRATCH"

Bo is never listed as a scratch in the their system. He also has three listing where he did not get credited with a pass. That would mean that he "FAILED"

If you disagree with their records, then I'd suggest that you take it up with them. While you are at it maybe you can get the AKC, the OFA, and The Kennel Club to come around to your way of thinking as to responsible breeding. I caution you that convincing these dog authorities may take some time. I would suggest that you do it in the evenings so that it won't interfere with your daylight dog working hours. I'm guessing the pros who actually got passes in uper levels while Bo was failing in lower levels were actually using todays daylight hours to train their dogs, as opposed to dodging questions on the internet

Although you say "Bo has never failed a test", their records disagree and say he has failed 3 of the 5 tests he ran

Now why don't you quit dodging the questions I asked you before. As opposed to dodging the questions, why don't you answer them for us all. My name and the other posters who posted on this thread are actually irrelevant to the OP. I believe the questions I posed to you are actually quite relevant to the OP's thread.

Lastly I would tell you that successful businesses become successful by being ethical and honest

I don’t have a horse in this race but boy this is crazy. I am in a profession that has a wide range of pricing set by the individual. I used to blast the guys for charging what I thought was outrageous pricings. As I got older I realized that pricing is subjective and it didn’t matter what a person qualifications are as long as the customer is happy with what they purchase and the price they paid then that was an acceptable price. Price is just one factor in a person’s decision to pick one pup over another. Who knows maybe Dark Timber Kennels has phenomenal dogs, Maybe they have a phenomenal reputation, Maybe the guy is just a phenomenal sales person. What ever it is the price is between the seller and the buyer.
As far as health goes it seams to me that the breeder is guaranteeing the pups so what more do you need?

Just my 2 cents

Your comp record, your dogs comp record, the breeding age of your dogs, the lack of OFA clearances on your dogs when bred, the price of an untrained animal offered for sale by you, your dogs pedigrees, and your 24 hour guarantee(posted from your website) are not opinions. They are facts, that people have raised legitimate questions about.

In part you are correct. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay. However there are ethics involved that trump that. When someone puts themselves out there as a professional they have a certain duty to hold themselves to an ethical standard. I have seen too many times where unscrupulous professionals are nothing more than salesman. They are a detriment to the animals and to unsuspecting and inexperienced people who are trying to get in the game. Newbie comes along and wants to get in the game. They go to "pro" and get sold a bill of goods along with an overpriced animal. They get burned and leave the game. It's hurts all of us not to mention the animals that shouldn't be being bred saturating the market with low value animals that need homes.

The questions asked in this thread of DKT are prudent questions that should be asked. If the OP, and others reading, have learned some of the right questions to ask, and things to look for then it was worth it whether Mr Craig wants to answer them or not.

Again I don’t have any connection to the poster or Kennel. Obviously if there are some concerns with what a person publishes on a website then yes they should either correct the mistake or be able to explain what they posted. But that again is between the buyer and the seller and I do agree this post most likely has created some awareness in questions that should be asked before purchasing a pup
As far as the OP goes, their original question was “Anyone have any knowledge of Dark Timber Kennels and Justin Craig” The only people that responded where ones that had personnel knowledge of the kennel and the person and all there responses were positive, and I did not see any negative comments about the Kennel, or the person. Then only ones that responded negatively where breeders them selves advertising puppies, and again since price and value is what the buyer is comfortable with, the only negative is incorrect information on a website.
Again just my opinion

Not just incorrect info. The unethical breeding of under age animals, along with no OFA Certs. Price is subjective to a degree but market value for animals of a certain pedigree and ability is fairly easily definable within the space. The OP and others should be aware that there are alternatives, viable, proven alternatives at a lower price point. I'm not a breeder. I've never sold a pup to anyone.

There is a great article on the DU website titled “5 Key Points for Training Your Retriever” written by Robert Milner. The article describes how the Hunt Test/Field Trail environment and the increasing ability of trainers are masking poor genetics and are producing titled dogs that are a poor representation of the breed. I am not saying that all are this way but just because they have an SHR, HR, HRCH, GRHRCH, JH, SH, MH or FC title does not make them breeding stock

Again just my opinion

By Robert Milner. Enough said.

Robert Milner is not an unbiased source. He trains without the use of the e-collar and his dogs can't really compete with the quality of dogs you see running in Field Trials or the higher levels of Hunt test. So I wouldn't doubt for a second he's going to say things like that about his competition. If his dogs are superior to those dogs then why doesn't he enter some test/trials and prove it.

Titles don't tell the whole story but they help show the ability of the genetics. It's on the breeder to be ethical and try and better the breed.

Yep he sells his own snake oil.

He has a point, Robert Milner and his connection to Wildrose should be a red flag, every article is a push for the British lab and they down the American Field bred retriever

Sure, but is he wrong? Just because you disagree with his opinion on English versus American doesn't discredit his point of the increase ability of trainers overcoming a lack of natural traights found in labs. Again im not saying one opinion is right or wrong but blasting a guy over price is a lttle much. If you want to bring up health certs I would like to see proof of a dog from this guy that has health problems that he did not make righ then I will changey opinion . If not then let the people that know the guy make recomendations either good or bad

Titles don't tell the whole story but they help show the ability of the genetics. It's on the breeder to be ethical and try and better the breed. [/quote]


I agree with this.

Sorry but when people are breeding under age animals it should be pointed out. In today's world people breeding labs without OFA health certs is unacceptable and should be called out. It is unethical from a pure animal standpoint and a detriment to the breed.

As for Milner, He is completely biased and has an agenda to denigrate the FT/HT dogs. Does a title tell the whole story, no, but a FC AFC is pretty darn good indicator of a dogs ability to do the job and its train ability. The trainers get better, the dogs get better, the tests get harder and the titles more competitive. Milner can't compete so he pushes his agenda so he can continue selling pups against his competition.

I certainly would say that no dog can perform to its maximum if it’s unhealthy. But before we throw out words like "unethical" we owe it to be able to prove what we say about someone is true.

Again the OP asked if anyone had Knowledge of this kennel and this person. To that I would have to say No. I don’t know him or his Kennel, Good luck