Alright guys, got a mystery this year:

I'm in west Llano Co. and my 1.5yo age class sucks. 75% are spikes, and the remainder are weak forks.

I can't figure this out. Surveys show that overall herd numbers are down and better balanced. We have fewer "culls" showing up, and most bucks 2.5+ have brow tines. We had decent rain in the late winter, spring, and summer. And, my 3.5 and older bucks are more numerous and better than ever.

Last sear I had several 1.5yo with 6 or7 points. What's causing all the dang spikes?

STX has been in Kansas for a few weeks....When the cat is away....

If the 2.5+ bucks are looking as expected I wouldn't be concerned too much with the 1.5 year olds.

How much land are you managing and what were your harvest numbers last year and so far this year? Sounds like its time to up the harvest of spikes.

Sounds like numbers were up, drought and food were down, would not worry about it till next year. If you get a bunch of cruddy 2.5 next years hammer the lower scoring in that class next year.

TxAg, we are seeing the same thing down in Llano. In the past two years we have seen one spike and that's it. Now this year two have been taken since Thanksgiving with many more on game cam.

I would bet on drought and range conditions.

Maybe a later fawn crop this year?

My money is on poor range conditions last year causing doe fawns to hit the magic weight triggering estrous later (2nd rut). This causes a younger fawn crop, with most nutrition devoted to body growth rather than antler growth. More fawns with spots probably this October as well.

X2

I would say either poor range conditions or the does we're breed late last year which produced the fawns having a late birthday. Neither of which are genetic! That's why I don't shoot spikes. One year we shot out an entire age class because we hammered the spikes. I'll never do that again. IMHO, I think it is counter productive to shoot spikes unless the herd is balanced and near the carrying capacity. By shooting spikes, you only increase the B:D ratio. TPWD says otherwise.....

Our deer seem to be bread about the same time every year no matter how dry or wet it is. We have seen yearlings with inch long spikes all the way up to 8 points. I feel there is something goin on with that. If one grows and 8 point rack and the other cant grow 2 inches of horn total I don't want him. We shoot a few, but not all of them. Mostly because we couldn't shoot them all. Its hard to manage for population on a low fence property much less genetics.

You can tell if its a spike because of late fawning simply by looking at the body size. Spikes with a larger body should be culled out if you want to remove that trait from the gene pool. If he is a spike that is about the size of a labrador, let him go, he could be the next donkey kong in three years.

You might have something there. I did notice last year that 2nd rut was really kicking, lots of doe fawns being bred. It was much more noticeable than the primary rut. This could be causing late fawns as you suggest.

This could be a carryover from 2011 drought, meaning does went into Estrous late that year, causing doe fawns to be born later in 2012, etc.

I have always shot big-bodied spikes. When I have two 1.5yos with equal body weight and one has 6 or 7 pts while the other is a spike, the spike will go. This year has caused me to re-think that since the great majority are spikes.

Agreed. We have always done it like this in the past.

I agree. That's why I don't understand why most people think by shooting them that they are improving genetics. They only thing you are doing to reducing overall buck numbers. Same goes for shooting "culls". How many years would it take to see an improvement in the herd. We know that does make up 50% of the genetics, how do you tell which doe produced that "cull" buck? Do most hunters stay on a lease for 15-20 years to see any kind of improvement? Just thinking out loud....

Been seein' a lot more spikes in San Saba County as well.

I disagree on the culls. You may not know for sure on a spike. But on a 3.5 or older cull, by that point you know exactly what sort of potential and antler characteristics that bucks is carrying. Why would you keep him around? Sure, you may not signigicantly change the genetic makeup of your herd with that one deer but at least you will prevent him from breeding further.

And to your second question, I dang sure hope to be hunting the same place in 15 or 20 years. I think that trend is changing as more Lease hunters are willing to invest in the long-term potential of a place thru management.

I agree on some "cull" bucks need to be shot. Once the buck hits the ground, he is done breeding for sure. How do you figure out which doe produced him?

up the road in Mills county, I'm seeing more younger deer (it seems) than this time last year. We've noticed several young spikes, antlers about 3" - 4" looking like daggers. We're letting them go, to get more age. Younger son shoot a spike with 9" tines and field dressed as much as the does we've been taking. I think you have to let those little ones go and take more doe. General problem in our area is age, lack of, on almost all bucks. Shoot more does, donate to charity if you have to.

I agree your not gonna change the genetics. We are low fence and have water and spun corn and free choice protein available year round it pulls in a lot of deer. If we shoot all does to attempt to get back to CC we would have a herd of bucks chasing 1 poor doe come rut. The culls and bigger spikes are what we shoot to try and keep some symblance of balance.

There are too many variables to make blanket statements about shooting spikes and /or cull bucks on low or high fence areas. (not injured or crippled deer)
Research has proven not all spikes are inferior, ( MS. State, Dr. Harry Jacobson, Stephen F Austin, Dr. J Kroll) and that until a buck reaches a minimum of 5.5 years, it is very difficult to predict what he will become as far as antlers..
Any good management program will include a harvest of all age classes. Not just culls or spikes!

Some spike bucks can exhibit trophy class antlers at 5.5 and so can some "cull bucks". But the variables , drought, EHD, floods, or hard winters can all shape the antler formation potential for a given year. Patience is what it takes to reach the upper level of antler production, ( what ever that may be for a given area) for most deer hunters.


The truth is very few biologists can identify with certainty exactly which buck out of younger age classes will turn from an "ugly duckling" into a keeper. Which is one reason why not shooting bucks till 5.5 years of age is a better ideal than shooting them younger than 5.5 YOA. But the average deer hunter really is not in a position, most of the time, to do that.

It's because of fracking. It's the oilfield's fault.

I hunt some down the road from you and have last 15 years.

A) late rains are a false sense of herd health. Yes you got a lot of rain but it was later in the year. Excellent horn growth down there is when jan, feb and march gets lots of rain.

B) 1.5 years old regardless of Kerr study is not a good indicator of future performance.

C) that area is very hard to keep a balanced ratio, we are lucky and hunt a big property so our efforts show a little more.

D) that area is why I'm so biased on effectiveness of true culling effortsif you're not packing 10-15 mld tags per quarter section, you won't have a very effective program(especially if you have any winter food plots (I've counted as many as 72 deer in 10 acre oat feild) That area also opened my eyes on what kind of jump they can make in much older age classes.

Does, stags and three-four year old short g3 deer is what we cull off of know