Hi All,

Been on TXHF for a while but never posted in the dog section.

I've got a 2 year old weim who is a family dog. We're looking for a companion for him who would have the ability to be hunted under if I chose to train that way. But primarily we just want another good tempered dog who hates squirrels as much as our Goose.

I know i'm getting a female GSP so no need for recommendations there.

So, i'm just wondering what kind of questions and specific expectations do you put on the breeder that you're buying from?
I've a deposit down on a pup from what appears to be a hobby breeder. I've spoken to them quite extensively and they seem nice enough. Both parents are on site, AKC, and both have been hunted under. They've had 1 litter prior and apparently all litter mates are doing great an being hunted.

They have recently sent me the contract which raised my eyebrows a little. Essentially the contract guarantee's the pup for 14 days from take home date with a 48 hour vet checkup mandatory. Thats it.

I've queried this with them and i'm awaiting and answer but i'm inclined to say that 14 days is not worth much, especially if they dont have any OFA certificates (i've asked for these, hopefully they have them). Hip displaysia and so on isn't going to show itself within 14 days.

I just want to get as close to possible as guaranteeing a healthy pup. If that means losing the $100 deposit and going elsewhere then so be it. But i hope we don't have to, we're 5 weeks out.

They also provided AKC pedigree for parents and they appear to have good lineage though i can't exclaim to be an expert. Can post these if you think it would help.

Thoughts, questions, suggestions all appreciated


Thanks.

http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html
GSPs are number 148 on the list, looks like the numbers of hd dogs evaluated are pretty low.

Who's the breeder?

There are NO guarantees when it comes to dogs, health, temperament, hunting ability or otherwise.

Tidwell's.

My guess is that they are new to 'breeding' as they don't have a web presence yet. I think this is their second litter ever. Everyone has to start somewhere so i'm not concerned about that necessarily.

I was just interested to hear other peoples expectations on what the breeder should provide in guarantees ETC . Hunting is secondary for me, my primary focus is having a healthy dog.

Thanks

Why not go to the GSP rescue to help a dog in need that way?

MS1454 - Appreciate the suggestion but i'm not looking for a rescue. We considered it for a while but really want to build a bond with our dog from puppy hood.

Thanks

Post the pedigree...I'd like to see it... ofa is a big one for me. I've had dogs with no ofa guarantee. Another one to ask is will they have the tails and dew claws done. Most do but its something to ask. Are the parents involved in navhda or anything of that sort? How old are the parents?

x2 - a very good question to ask is what the parents prized in the NAVHDA NA test. It doesn't determine if the pup will be a good hunting dog or not but it is a helpful way to determine good lines. Most of the reputable versatile hunting dog breeders will take part in NAVHDA testing.

Thanks for the responses all.

Tex-x & Bookem - Having talked with the seller further it turns out I misunderstood the situation somewhat. They have two GSP's, both of which hunt from which they have had 2 litters. They are not 'breeders' per se'. I'm going to meet the parents and the pup before and commitment.

I'm comfortable with the situation. As i said, i'm not looking for or paying for the greatest hunter, or perfect show dog. Just a good all round GSP that can retrieve a bit and play with my Weim.

Pedigree's below.

Sire


Dam

For some reason sharp shooters von greta is familiar to me...if I figure it out I will let you know

I see a couple of MH master hunters. One FC field champion. One KS which is one of the highest field accomplishments you can get with a Gsp in Germany. Sharp shooters, shooting star, and vom riverwoods I believe are kennels that participate in NAVHDA. You can look up any dog on NAVHDA national site to view scores. On paper this is not a high power field bred dog. Will it hunt for you I would think so but No guarantee. I think that you said hunting was not your first priority. There are a lot of serious bird hunters here on this forum but the majority of the people I meet outside of a field/hunting related event are just bird dog pet owners. The two things I think you should consider are how the pups parents are. Their personalities. The second is the contract that the breeders have. I would want a guarantee on hip dysplasia.
Come bring your pup and wiem out to a North Texas NAVHDA training day.

super - Thanks for the feedback. Pedigree certificates don't mean a whole lot to me so its nice to have someone translate it. Seems like you understand the situation pretty well. I'm a pet owner, who hunts who likes bird dogs. I've already got a guarantee on the hip dysplasia and i'll certainly check out the parents and pups. I've also got contacts of owners from the previous litter of the same parents. All seems to be positive feed back about the dogs.

I'd certainly like to come down and watch some fully trained dogs in action, when and where is the NT NAVHDA? Just be warned, if there's a squirrel, pointing & howling trial, my weim has it won

The pedigree has a bunch of non-titled dogs. Closest dogs that have done much of anything in competition is 5 generations back. So, you need to rely on the parents and how the pups behave when you visit. I would get the owners to work the dogs on birds, show retrieving skills, style, how trained, etc. How trained-meaning, are they dead broke to the kill, sent on the retrieve, without a bobble, OR do they point, barely hold, not too interested in retrieving, etc. I'd have to see them hunt, range, show independence to find birds, boldness, etc. Can't take any breeders word for anything. You must see them worked.

Personally, if I were buying a pet/part time hunting dog I would still find a reputable breeder with truly quality lines,or at least do my research and educate myself on GSPs and lines.

I've had shorthairs for 50 years, trained and competed with many, finished 4 with Field Champion titles, bred some good ones, and know most of the lines from the past 30 plus years. I wouldn't buy a dog from parents that were only titled however. I would want the parents to have proven themselves on wild birds!! No test or title can ever take the place of wild bird hunting!! Personally, I'd look to John Rabidou at Uodibar Kennels in Hondo or Keith and Robbi Gulledge of Blue Dawn Kennels in Madison, KS for proven lines and dogs that are hunted!!

Trueblu - Appreciate the input. I think there's a little confusion here. As i said at the start, I'm not looking for the best bird dog lineage, nor do I want to pay for it. It would be a waste to give a dog from such good breeding to me. But, out of interest, what would a dog from one of the aforementioned programs cost roughly?

I probably posted on the wrong forum in retrospect. You guys are all passionate about your dogs and its great to see, but primarily in a hunting setting it seems. I really just wanted people's opinions on a fairly short health guarantee in the contract I was given and its escalated into this full blown conversation. I've since received a longer guarantee.

As I said in the beginning, my primary aim is to get a companion with a similar energy level to my wiem. Secondary would be to hunt this dog if it shows the natural instinct for it. My weim was a 'rescue' and has insane prey drive, will point and whoa without being taught, but has no interest in retrieving. If the GSP simply enjoyed retrieving a floating bumper from my pool i'd be a happy man.

As you can see i have low expectations. Maybe if i come visit the North Texas NAVHDA i might change my mind though!

Thanks

http://www.uodibarkennel.com/studdogs.html

Against all Odds is an awesome looking dog.

Haha, no doubt. Little bit like suggesting a rocket launcher to a guy that was quite content buying a handgun though.

It’s fine that you are on this forum asking questions, etc. While many of us on here are passionate about our gundogs and hunt them, many of them are family dogs and companions also. Personally, I wouldn't have a dog that wasn't part of my family also… but that’s just my personal preference. I hope you find what you are looking for.

One aspect that you need to realize… is that when you are looking for a breeder that will give you health clearances and guarantees, etc… and you’re looking for a good bloodline or a dog that will be mostly natural, you’re essentially going to be looking at some higher end dogs. A breeder that pays for the testing and health clearances and works hard to produce topshelf gundog litters to be biddable and perform in the field and that are “guaranteed” in writing, well, you’re going to pay something for that.

I’d say $600 minimum… and that's probably a little light for a good bloodline, guaranteed shorthair. It’s been about 8 years since I bought a pup, maybe closer to $800 these days.

My shorthair’s bottom side is a Rabidou line and I would highly recommend his breedings.

Along the same lines as your previous analogy... you might be looking for a new car with a warranty at used car prices.

You might find it, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't without trade offs of some kind. I seriously doubt a breeder that isn't necessarily concerned about "the best lineage" of his dogs is going to be testing and giving health clearances...

Grey, I would tell you then to seriously consider GSP rescue. Where a trial bred dog is not necessarily a rocket, the dog will typically not be a boot polisher either. Hoping for natural ability out of unproven stock is more prayer than hope. Where Rabidou sells pups for around $1,000 you will get a dog with natural ability who will be far easier to train than a backyard bred dog from non-proven parents.

If someone posts in a gun dog or trial forum they will get PASSION. But, like you said, most don't want a potential oustanding hunting dog wasted by someone who will only hunt once or twice a year. NOTHING PERSONAL!! You may decide you can commit to the dog and to training and to hunting. If so, get the best you can afford and realize the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars that will go into training. My family had shorthairs for my entire life. However, my first trial GSP was referred to as "my $100,000 birddog" by my ex-wife. ONE place she was right. Most dogs like that cost $100,000 and usually at least one marriage!!

If you like the original people, still, see the dogs worked on birds at bare minimum.

Again, thanks for all the input. I'm learning plenty!

Just to clarify, I might shoot birds twice a year. Generally i'm after hog and deer. So having a good family dog is where it's at for me, not a pro bird dog. Like I said, it would be a waste to take a dog with great bloodlines at this point.

I'm still considering rescues but it just depends on if the right female comes up. At this point we have a deposit on a pup and i'll go see them.

Thanks

Get the dog that you like...I've seen 100 dollar shorthairs hunt.

Look at wildrose kennels I have a female from him.
I called a bunch of kennels out of state and most of them told me if they
Where looking for a dog they would call Charlie Rose at wildrose kennel
http://www.wildrosegermanshorthairs.com/

NT NAVHDA will be having a test on OCT 19 and 20 up in Decatur at the Valley View bird dog grounds. We are hoping to have 2 training days before then. I will post the dates when set. Anyone is welcome to come to the test or training.

I'll be there for Blue's NA.

David E said he was going to try to make it to one of our trainings also. You should come.