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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4478216
08/14/13 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,258 |
So you DO care about what your habitat looks like?
If you take offense to me saying it looks like a parking lot... Because it doesn't... Sounds like you are below carrying capacity of the habitat.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#4478231
08/14/13 04:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
We all farm deer wether we want to call it that or not, especially when it comes to animals that don't migrate. As far as Amos I can't speak for him, but I took it as overstocking strictly as a resource for a higher money opportunity, isn't smart or safe land management. His view of ROI on his land is different then yours that's all.
my view of CC and yours is different. You view CC as none existant because you will feed for substainabilty not peak performance. I view CC as an overall impact my deer will have on my ranch, just like l look at how my cattle stocking rates will effect my deer herd, and how what i plant will help balance both and substain year round.
You like really high densities, I choose very low.
Amos and my disagreement over densities wasn't what I was ragging him about. It was simply his assumption and statemnt about me. I don't think anyone really cares to be told they don't "deserve" to be in a conversation. On my Zavala Co. ranch I have been watching a neighbor manage similar to the way you are managing. I have been increasing density since 2006. And with about 18 inches of rain there already this year, I haven't fed ANY protein. My theory is that the genetics are there, age and nutrition are all up to me. And that with more deer, I'll have more chances to raise a higher % of trophies than if I cull. So far, I'm kicking my neighbor's butt on native trophy/acre. As soon as I bgin to see a problem with overal mature buck score I'll dial it down. But I can't imagine I'll ever see that if I feed when I need to.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#4478263
08/14/13 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
So you DO care about what your habitat looks like?
If you take offense to me saying it looks like a parking lot... Because it doesn't... Sounds like you are below carrying capacity of the habitat. This is silly. When you say I "don't belong in a conversation", it's gonna get me to rag on ya. Guaranteed. I just challenged the assumptions (parking lot deer introducer) you made to justify your statement. Regardless of what my place looks like, I think I belong in the convo. I think you do to. We in fact share several opinions. And of course I care about what my habitat looks like. But I don't have a problem with my buddies who raise penned deer, and I'm willing to learn about CC from those examples too.
Last edited by therancher; 08/14/13 05:09 PM.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4478284
08/14/13 05:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,662
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,662 |
You and I are similar in our approach. ..biggest difference is my densities are much lower so in years of drought, I'm not having to supplement feed.
You should kick your neigbhors butt on number of trophies, but he can probably say his cost less per head, and likely have a higher percentage of BC score. Because he probably doesn't care to feed his lower end.
No right or wrong just different approach. His lessor denisties afford him more gambles on upper end deer and less cost in each deer also. Drought years he will probably crush you though on B/C scores for the same cost in supplemental feed.
I don't sell hunts so my motivators are different, there for my cost restraints are different also
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#4478394
08/14/13 05:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 947
JMalin
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 947 |
What happened to the discussion on spikes? Y'all aim to tell me that if there will be no change in incidences of spike antlered yearlings after years and years of culling "your" deer and "neighboring" deer that pass through? I tend to think that if you shot enough and provided better groceries, you'd see a marked decrease in the percentage of them. Not claiming you'd ever get rid of spiked yearlings completely, but it would be nice to see less of them as a total percentage of yearling bucks.
Last edited by JMalin; 08/14/13 05:51 PM.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: JMalin]
#4478396
08/14/13 05:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4478399
08/14/13 05:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258 |
So you DO care about what your habitat looks like?
If you take offense to me saying it looks like a parking lot... Because it doesn't... Sounds like you are below carrying capacity of the habitat. This is silly. When you say I "don't belong in a conversation", it's gonna get me to rag on ya. Guaranteed. I just challenged the assumptions (parking lot deer introducer) you made to justify your statement. Regardless of what my place looks like, I think I belong in the convo. I think you do to. We in fact share several opinions. And of course I care about what my habitat looks like. But I don't have a problem with my buddies who raise penned deer, and I'm willing to learn about CC from those examples too. You don't belong in a conversation if you are applying variables to it that others weren't talking about. If you don't care about habitat.. Then carrying capacity As it was being discussed isn't relevant to what you were saying. You will also noticed I never said you were a deer farmer. I said farmer, which fit with my monoculture cash crop analogy. I understand the confusion. That's on me. Maybe I should have said the deer pen correlation doesn't belong in the conversation.... instead if saying YOU don't. It doesn't have a habitat component. EVERY OTHER discussion on deer management and capacity has a habitat component. You understand that you saying habitat doesn't matter... Is just as absurd as someone saying feed doesn't matter.... Or I hope you do.
Last edited by AmoCuernos; 08/14/13 05:54 PM.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: JMalin]
#4478464
08/14/13 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
What happened to the discussion on spikes? Y'all aim to tell me that if there will be no change in incidences of spike antlered yearlings after years and years of culling "your" deer and "neighboring" deer that pass through? I tend to think that if you shot enough and provided better groceries, you'd see a marked decrease in the percentage of them. Not claiming you'd ever get rid of spiked yearlings completely, but it would be nice to see less of them as a total percentage of yearling bucks. Yes. I gave an example of people who culled every spike for years high fenced. When 2010 rolled around they culled another 47. Previous years they were culling in the 10's to 20's. Food is what matters. You can't significantly change genetics by culling unless you cull all deer and replace them. You don't get to select who breeds on the range.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#4478476
08/14/13 06:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
So you DO care about what your habitat looks like?
If you take offense to me saying it looks like a parking lot... Because it doesn't... Sounds like you are below carrying capacity of the habitat. This is silly. When you say I "don't belong in a conversation", it's gonna get me to rag on ya. Guaranteed. I just challenged the assumptions (parking lot deer introducer) you made to justify your statement. Regardless of what my place looks like, I think I belong in the convo. I think you do to. We in fact share several opinions. And of course I care about what my habitat looks like. But I don't have a problem with my buddies who raise penned deer, and I'm willing to learn about CC from those examples too. You don't belong in a conversation if you are applying variables to it that others weren't talking about. If you don't care about habitat.. Then carrying capacity As it was being discussed isn't relevant to what you were saying. You will also noticed I never said you were a deer farmer. I said farmer, which fit with my monoculture cash crop analogy. I understand the confusion. That's on me. Maybe I should have said the deer pen correlation doesn't belong in the conversation.... instead if saying YOU don't. It doesn't have a habitat component. EVERY OTHER discussion on deer management and capacity has a habitat component. You understand that you saying habitat doesn't matter... Is just as absurd as someone saying feed doesn't matter.... Or I hope you do. And I think the deer pen analogy does belong in the conversation. Because it proves that habitat is irrelevant as long as you feed the deer.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4478714
08/14/13 07:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I feed...why don't I have 100% fawn recruitment & 200+" deer?
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4479303
08/14/13 10:07 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258 |
So you DO care about what your habitat looks like?
If you take offense to me saying it looks like a parking lot... Because it doesn't... Sounds like you are below carrying capacity of the habitat. This is silly. When you say I "don't belong in a conversation", it's gonna get me to rag on ya. Guaranteed. I just challenged the assumptions (parking lot deer introducer) you made to justify your statement. Regardless of what my place looks like, I think I belong in the convo. I think you do to. We in fact share several opinions. And of course I care about what my habitat looks like. But I don't have a problem with my buddies who raise penned deer, and I'm willing to learn about CC from those examples too. You don't belong in a conversation if you are applying variables to it that others weren't talking about. If you don't care about habitat.. Then carrying capacity As it was being discussed isn't relevant to what you were saying. You will also noticed I never said you were a deer farmer. I said farmer, which fit with my monoculture cash crop analogy. I understand the confusion. That's on me. Maybe I should have said the deer pen correlation doesn't belong in the conversation.... instead if saying YOU don't. It doesn't have a habitat component. EVERY OTHER discussion on deer management and capacity has a habitat component. You understand that you saying habitat doesn't matter... Is just as absurd as someone saying feed doesn't matter.... Or I hope you do. And I think the deer pen analogy does belong in the conversation. Because it proves that habitat is irrelevant as long as you feed the deer. Irrelevant to your goals, doesn't mean irrelevant to anyone but you. When you can put fawn cover in a bag, call me. You have a new client. Irrelevant is a big all encompassing word... water is part of habitat... that's relevant. Fawning shade, grass cover and edge are important as you get out of a pen... that's relevant. Forbes as a nutritional kick are habitat... those are incredibly relevant. No one has ever figured out a delivery system outside of a pen environment in south texas to negate the absence or presence of forbes. The deer pen doesn't translate on those issues.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: rifleman]
#4480605
08/15/13 04:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
I feed...why don't I have 100% fawn recruitment & 200+" deer? I give up... you cull spikes?
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4480607
08/15/13 04:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Nope...and have a good amt of 7-8pt yearlings
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: rifleman]
#4480612
08/15/13 04:44 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Nope...and have a good amt of 7-8pt yearlings Well don't you think it is about time you started
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: stxranchman]
#4480614
08/15/13 04:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Why when I get flooded with new yearlings after season is over.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: rifleman]
#4480617
08/15/13 04:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
...and I'm still not shooting your namesake buck...
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: rifleman]
#4480619
08/15/13 04:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Why when I get flooded with new yearlings after season is over. East Texas + Spotlight + Rancher Season = No more spikes
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: rifleman]
#4480620
08/15/13 04:48 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
...and I'm still not shooting your namesake buck... Don't blame you....they are making more that look just like him...everyone needs a ranch full of them...
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: stxranchman]
#4480621
08/15/13 04:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Kind of like how I have a ton of no brow tine deer....
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#4480623
08/15/13 04:51 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
"Irrelevant to your goals, doesn't mean irrelevant to anyone but you.
When you can put fawn cover in a bag, call me. You have a new client.
Irrelevant is a big all encompassing word... water is part of habitat... that's relevant. Fawning shade, grass cover and edge are important as you get out of a pen... that's relevant. Forbes as a nutritional kick are habitat... those are incredibly relevant. No one has ever figured out a delivery system outside of a pen environment in south texas to negate the absence or presence of forbes.
The deer pen doesn't translate on those issues"
I don't over graze cattle, and I don't have any places that don't have shade, forbs, fawn cover, edge and grass cover. They can't live without water so that's a given.
And I don't cull or "manage" anything but the feed bucket.
I let people harvest bucks when they're 6 or older. And even the spikes at 1.5, are money makers at 6.5 and older. I shoot VERY few does.
And my places are crawling with bucks.
Deer can't "ruin" my habitat as long as I'm managing the feed bucket.
It's impossible.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4480625
08/15/13 04:57 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,258 |
No... It's not because you can approach pen like conditions in the pasture at high enough densities.
I'm not talking acres/deer... I'm talking deer/acre. A 300 acre "feed lot" ranch with a browse line in the hill country is a classic example, though exotics usually help that out as well.
Last edited by AmoCuernos; 08/15/13 04:58 AM.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: AmoCuernos]
#4480631
08/15/13 05:07 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
No... It's not because you can approach pen like conditions in the pasture at high enough densities.
I'm not talking acres/deer... I'm talking deer/acre. A 300 acre "feed lot" ranch with a browse line in the hill country is a classic example, though exotics usually help that out as well. I'm 57. I plan on living quite a while longer. But I don't believe (based on 17 years of observation that has consistently proven that my habitat "with feeding" is damage proof), that I will live to see the day that the deer on my ranches are adversely affected by over browsed native habitat. I guess we'll see.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#4480640
08/15/13 05:20 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,258 |
No... It's not because you can approach pen like conditions in the pasture at high enough densities.
I'm not talking acres/deer... I'm talking deer/acre. A 300 acre "feed lot" ranch with a browse line in the hill country is a classic example, though exotics usually help that out as well. I'm 57. I plan on living quite a while longer. But I don't believe (based on 17 years of observation that has consistently proven that my habitat "with feeding" is damage proof), that I will live to see the day that the deer on my ranches are adversely affected by over browsed native habitat. I guess we'll see. If you didn't adversely affect it in the last 5 years of drought with the densities you are running now, you probably never will. But saying it is "immune" ignores that there is a threshold somewhere.. where there are too many deer... I run about 1:6.5 in Webb with a feeder to 80 acres... feed station per 150... I've seen a place that is 1:2 with just deer... I've seen places with 500 exotics on 300 acres... You can see the difference... no matter how much is fed... because you are approaching the "not a green sprig" of a deer pen at those densities... And on those larger scales... you lose all the efficiency that a 5-20 acre enclosure provides you as a steward of individuals... so that green sprig matters.
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: stxranchman]
#4480641
08/15/13 05:22 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451
Seadog
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451 |
Why when I get flooded with new yearlings after season is over. East Texas + Spotlight + Rancher Season = No more spikes
I support Cap and Trade - Cap our spending and Trade Obama
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: TPWD Paper on Spikes
[Re: therancher]
#5111771
05/13/14 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,258
AmoCuernos
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,258 |
No... It's not because you can approach pen like conditions in the pasture at high enough densities.
I'm not talking acres/deer... I'm talking deer/acre. A 300 acre "feed lot" ranch with a browse line in the hill country is a classic example, though exotics usually help that out as well. I'm 57. I plan on living quite a while longer. But I don't believe (based on 17 years of observation that has consistently proven that my habitat "with feeding" is damage proof), that I will live to see the day that the deer on my ranches are adversely affected by over browsed native habitat. I guess we'll see. This was a fun argument. Lets keep going on this thing. Should we talk about habitat from a bag again? This spike argument is pretty much dead.
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