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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: jshouse]
#3626512
10/02/12 10:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
if you don't have anything to really to compare it to it should look great. Although I feel data collection will flip from processors to taxidermist shop for accurate sampling.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3626518
10/02/12 10:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Count them KS bucks & Muleys in the shops as far North Tx deer
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3626535
10/02/12 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,283
Texas Dan
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,283 |
Here's a link well worth bookmarking. Many good resources and recorded videos created by MSU researchers. MSU Deer Lab
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: jshouse]
#3626823
10/02/12 11:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 104
BCT
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 104 |
"Experimental regulation," so is there a timeframe attached to the AR's? Are they looking to re-evaluate their data after a certain amount of years? Apparently, AR's were only experimental years ago wehn they implmented them in a handfull of counties years ago. After showing postive results they wenbt ahead with them on a permanent basis. From the report: "TPWD does not have any intention of rescinding antler restrictions at this time, as this regulated harvest strategy is meeting the intended goals. However, TPWD does monitor this regulation and all regulations to ensure they are not impacting hunting opportunity and the overall benefit to deer populations and deer hunters. Should we see adverse impacts to the buck herd, or to hunting opportunity, TPWD staff will reassess the harvest strategy in place."
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: BCT]
#3627137
10/03/12 01:21 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 92
OHanlon87
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 92 |
Being from East Texas and hunting there most of my life, I think the AR's are great because it forced people in that area to become educated on deer management. 30 years ago a good day hunting was that you saw a deer much less a buck. With a low deer population as compared to the south, central and western part of the state, people were meat hunters and anything with horns was killed. Now when i hunt i have choices and see plenty of deer. The new problem i see however, is that at least in our area, we have an over abundant population of 8 points that are mature 4.5 and older deer that don't meet the spread restriction. Their needs to be a point at which a land owner can start culling some of these basket 8's as seen in this pic.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: OHanlon87]
#3627178
10/03/12 01:30 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 486
duckslayer1206
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 486 |
he looks pretty close, not saying break the law but do you think ranches that know deer management, can tell a deers age on hoof are letting these deer slid through do to AR's, i dont think so these type of deer are killed every year, cleaned and processed in a barn and the horns cleaned and hung before anyone knows otherwise. just saying.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: duckslayer1206]
#3627214
10/03/12 01:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 486
duckslayer1206
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 486 |
depending on the acreage, sometimes the hunters know whats best for the herd thats the only argue i have against ar's, they have worked for several, and then alot of times your left with situations like ohanlon87's where you see more bucks/does but the bucks are tall narrow racks. and the herd will keep producing bucks like this because you cant shoot them. On the other hand this buck would have been killed when it was just nubs without ar's
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: duckslayer1206]
#3627256
10/03/12 01:46 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,484
BowSlayer
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,484 |
depending on the acreage, sometimes the hunters know whats best for the herd thats the only argue i have against ar's, they have worked for several, and then alot of times your left with situations like ohanlon87's where you see more bucks/does but the bucks are tall narrow racks. and the herd will keep producing bucks like this because you cant shoot them. On the other hand this buck would have been killed when it was just nubs without ar's AR's don't protect nubs...
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: Texas Dan]
#3627262
10/03/12 01:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 241
THawk_4
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 241 |
Needless to say, my position and agreement with his comments are well-known in these forums. No one can get the QDM cult foaming at the mouth any quicker than myself. And I'm sure the comments that were made and which I have given below, are sure to send them reeling.
Thank you for sharing.
"Based on 38 years of solid data from research that was designed to answer these questions, those older “narrow-rack” deer likely were spikes as yearlings. If hunters take advantage of the extra tag and harvest spikes at 1 ½ years of age, this may reduce the incidence of those older “management / cull” bucks slipping through the cracks and contributing to the gene pool later in life."
"In addition to the research conducted by TPWD for the past 38 years, there are many non-TPWD research projects that clearly indicate that, with few exceptions, yearling antler quality is a good predictor of future antler quality. The debate has been over for quite some time. The question isn’t whether spikes “catch up” but rather, how much culling intensity is required to improve antler quality within the population by XX%. That question remains unanswered. Can a spike grow up to be a quality deer? Sure (depending on your standards)! But with very few exceptions, they won’t grow up to be as big (antler-wise) as their 6-point and 8-point yearling counterparts. And 6-point and 8-point yearlings are more common than many people realize. Many mistake those deer as 2.5-year olds." So what is his answer to this? if you have a crazy non-typical that may be just shy of 13"? That would be a hell of a buck for anyone to shoot?
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3627269
10/03/12 01:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719
cameron00
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,719 |
Thanks for sharing, he nailed it. Nothing disputable whatsoever in that article.
NAILED IT.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: THawk_4]
#3627279
10/03/12 01:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
That first deer is fine. Shoot him and you will have zero problems.
Why does everyone think it's persuasive to post pics of the odd mature deer that doesn't make ARs? It means nothing.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: cameron00]
#3627294
10/03/12 01:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I'm glad I nailed it, cam. I've read too many management plans lately to understand that what's happening is a form of mgmt, it's just [tinkle] poor mgmt.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3627330
10/03/12 02:03 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
I'm glad I nailed it, cam. I've read too many management plans lately to understand that what's happening is a form of mgmt, it's just [tinkle] poor mgmt. That may be true, but it's a helluva lot better than the management taking place across the vast majority of east TX prior to ARs. Which was none. If a particular place wants to do it's own management TPWD has now made that pretty simple to do.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3627354
10/03/12 02:08 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,076
SSJR
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,076 |
I hunt in Jack county and we have had our lease for 11 years..Prior to us getting it it was a corporate lease with everything being shot. We started taking does and spikes the first 2 years on the place. By year 3 we had good numbers back and better bucks showing up..We actually wanted a spike tag back then because we were a one buck county and no one wanted to use a tag on older spikes.. Since the AR were placed things have gotten better. We now have a spike tag.. we continue to take only mature bucks with good spreads and let the younger bucks walk. Is it a perfect system? No, we also have narrow racked bucks that we cant do anything about. Overall from what I have seen, it has helped Jack county and our lease..It would be better to open it up maybe every other or every third year to where narrow racks can be taken out of the herd.. No program is fool proof..
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#3627444
10/03/12 02:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I'm glad I nailed it, cam. I've read too many management plans lately to understand that what's happening is a form of mgmt, it's just [tinkle] poor mgmt. That may be true, but it's a helluva lot better than the management taking place across the vast majority of east TX prior to ARs. Which was none. If a particular place wants to do it's own management TPWD has now made that pretty simple to do. It's easier to do by leaving them out of it and not let them jerk you around for not meeting their minimum quotas. I'm not going to shoot myself into a bind on a rebounding property that got screwed up in the first place by being leased as public land.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3627466
10/03/12 02:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Would be surprised how much around y'all over in that area has been managed for a long time. That's the core of the Temple Hi-$ leases.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3627540
10/03/12 02:49 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Oh wow an AR thread just before season starts.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: stxranchman]
#3627714
10/03/12 03:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I'm glad you've got ARs to work with now
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3627798
10/03/12 04:12 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,750
psycho0819
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,750 |
The main problem I have is the assertion by some people that the rest MUST have a management plan in the first place. If a group of hunters wants to hunt for meat and kill young bucks to get that meat, then I say more power to them, always have. Personally, and as a group on our family land, we have always 'managed for an older age structure even though we are on a relatively small parcel of land and can be negatively influenced by the neighboring lands. Our system was working just fine for us before the AR's went into effect, and I have many game cam pics to prove it. So we really didn't need TPWD dictating a flawed management plan to us when what we were doing worked just fine for us. And for the whole spike thing, I call BS on a spike growing up to be an inferior deer, or being somehow limtied to having a narrow rack. This buck was a spike his first year, notice the right front leg which is injured. it was like that the first time I ever saw him. Since he was easily recognizable, we let him walk for two more years, and my buddy in the pick took him as a 4.5 yr old with a bow. Sure, he's not a 'trophy' by most standards, but he is a respectable kill, and certainly above average for the immediate area. Do I agree with trying to manage for better age? Yes I do. Do I agree with the current AR rules? No I do NOT. Do I have an answer that would work for everyone, in every region? Heck no, no-one does, not even TPWD.
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction.
The end of the world began the day it was created, and life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: psycho0819]
#3628047
10/03/12 11:46 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,698
Hoytman
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,698 |
All i have to go by with the ar rules in place for 5 or 6yrs now is we see fewer deer now than before and still not seeing any monster deer and not many legal ones for that matter and WAY fewer does than before. Im sure ar is working in some areas but the 4 deer limit in hopkins co. has to go if we are ever going to see the numbers of deer we had before ar rules and the new bag limits went into place. I also have seen spikes grow into some decent size deer like psycho0819 some i dont see the need for the spike tag. I dont hunt horns, i hunt deer and the my main goal is meat so i dont care what i kill as long as its legal but dont think it should be legal to take 4 deer in a county that cant take that kind of harvest. Seen many places in tx that can but hopkins co aint one of em. I have owned and hunted my property for 25yrs now and im pretty sure i know the deer population better than TPW.
(Sig Pic to be no more than 125 pixels tall)
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: Hoytman]
#3644601
10/09/12 02:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220 |
His responses were VERBATIM from the 2004 webpage. Same old talking points. They don't and didn't know the "age structure" of the live/walking around deer herd....ANYWHERE in Texas. Hmmm...if they were getting so many young deer in their harvest surveys.....maybe there were too many young deer. Regardless of not knowing the initial Age Structure, and flawed data, they have no target age structure to measure if the program is successful or not. Are they going to count the dead deer again to see if there are "old"" deer waling in the woods? And the spike research thing. REALLY? Our state wildlife dept is going to rest on their 38 yr old research, data, and scientific methods, AND IGNORE ALL OTHERS cuz it doesn't fit their agenda?? How old is a 13" deer? How many years does it take for a buck to mature(4.5+)....so far it has been about 8 to 12 years (depending on area). So where are the 4 yo deer? Dear Mitch....please save face of my State's Dept. of Wildlife and stop the madness, the ignorance, the sloppy, flawed, and political & ego driven, APPROACH TO WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT.
Step up We will forgive you Same old, same old... TPW=Texas Politics and Wildlife
Last edited by PHishTX; 10/09/12 02:30 PM.
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: jshouse]
#3645221
10/09/12 06:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,705
toolman
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,705 |
Makes no difference to me, I shoot 'em all before they have horns anyway..
Old age ain't for sissies!
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: toolman]
#3645425
10/09/12 07:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220 |
I like this one.... BCT: Every AR hunter lives in fear of shooting a non-legal buck. What is your advice to someone who kills a 12 ½ inch deer? Any thought as to how many non-legal bucks are harvested each year?
Mitch Lockwood: The responsible thing to do is process this deer like any other deer. If you run across a TPWD wildlife biologist or game warden, it would be wise to make that person aware of your harvest....
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: PHishTX]
#3645518
10/09/12 07:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
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Re: TPWD responds to Antler Restriction concerns
[Re: rifleman]
#3655763
10/13/12 02:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 240
Cougarfoot
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 240 |
The thing to do in regard to balancing buck to Dow ratio would be like new jersey does. Where you have to kill a doe to get a buck tag and in some counties maybe make it where you have to take to does before you can get a buck tag. The other thing would be to educate hunters more on aging bucks and put an age limit so then bucks can get to maturity before killed. That will be tough to do but it sure is tough to distinguish if a buck it 13" especially if it's a mature buck that needs to be weeded out its a catch 22. just like anything education is the key And if we arent doing what we can to keep ourselves as hunter educated then we are doing the game and ourselves a diservice
Go Deep Or Go Home!!!!
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