I have a lab I bought from a trainer. She is awesome with dummies but she doesn't hunt with her nose.. Found that out when I run blinds with dove. Makes me nervous she doesn't have a good nose. I am new to training duck dogs so any help to get her to hunt with her nose and not sight would be great. Thanks

Sounds like she is over handled. Let her be a dog for a bit. I see what your talking about a lot with field trial and hunt test dogs people bring out when they hunt with me.

Exactly. ....and I need her as a duck dog. She circles around 3 times then looks at me or will come back to me at heal. What can I do to get her to hunt it up. Go in circles. My bro n law has a dog that cant handle well but has a great nose and finds everything. She handles well just doesnt hunt with nose.

Some fans of field trial dogs may take exception to this, but I see a lack of olfactory sense or efficient use of it more often in field trial lines than others. Since lining, speed and handling are key to success for these dogs, I attribute it to either the training or (since I see it often in pups, as well), selective breeding for bloodlines where the nose "doesn't get in the way." It's almost as if the nose has been bred out of them so they will line and handle better.

I expect to get flamed for this, but I'm going to weigh in, anyway. And bear in mind I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule for ALL of these dogs, I'm saying I see it more often in them, comparatively speaking, to hunting lines and British lines. And I'm speaking specifically about retrievers.

Your brother in law's dog, on the other hand, is a good example of an instinctive hunter whose nose would get in the way of winning FT events. He'd go off the line to investigate what his instincts tell him are good places to look for a wounded duck - OR his nose would lead him astray from keeping on the line. He's an instinctive hunter, which is what it sounds like you want in your dog, but isn't coming naturally.

I've trained a number of AFT pups that initially would literally step on the duck and still not find it. In the water, they'd swim right past it and never know it was there. But with some work, they have since moved on to be decent hunters and I get good reports on them, now. It's a step by step process of getting them to first use their nose (if they have one), then to trust it, then to use the wind with it.

I don't want to handle my dog all the way to the bird. I want to handle them to the vicinity and let them do their job. That is, to use their nose to hunt 'em up then bring them back. To get started, forget the big hunting picture. Start indoors, with simple nose work with no distractions so that use of the nose is the only thing the dog has to focus on. Hide something like canned dog food under a cup, place three or more cups upside down and let pup sniff out the treat. Gradually make it harder by moving the cups further away from each other, adding more cups and by using a less 'smelly' treat. Once he knows the game, he'll willingly use his nose to find the treat, even when it gets harder. Then move the game outside, to medium cover. Add distance. Don't forget to consider wind and initially, don't work against it. Either work where there is no wind, or let the wind help. Once pup is finding the treat in medium cover, switch out to game birds or scented bumpers. Praise lavishly, since he can't eat his prize. Be using the 'back' command with this, since that's what he'll be hearing in a hunt situation. Never set it up so he can use his eyes, but MUST use his nose. Next steps come once pup is able to consistently find birds within 30-40 yards with no wind, in medium cover. AT that point, he will simply know how to use his nose - but he must then learn to trust it and finally to work it, taking wind into consideration and using it to help him find the birds.

Since lining, speed and handling are key to success for these dogs, I attribute it to either the training or (since I see it often in pups, as well), selective breeding for bloodlines where the nose "doesn't get in the way." It's almost as if the nose has been bred out of them so they will line and handle better.

This is incorrect^^
Field Trial dogs are bred for marking and desire. The successful ones are capable of finding the area of the fall then using their nose to find it. The unsucessful ones (who can't mark as well)go to hunting homes.


To the OP, Has the dog been introduced to the dove scent before you sent it for the retrieve? Was the dog hot?

Dawn maybe you could enlighten me on how to teach a dog to line (hold a line) thru terrain and yardage. If this could be done then FT's would be easy, as would having a Nat'l champion.
Have you raised or trained a Field Champion?

Robby

How trained was she??? Was she trained with birds at all?? Don't laugh but there are trainers out there that don't use them.

Angie

The dog probably has not been around a lot of birds. Robby is right on the dove scent and maybe the dog was hot. Once they get hot, the dogs nose is not as good. Get a duck that is fresh and drag it around in some cover. Nothing hard right now. You want the dog to be successful. Walk it in the area and tell it to hunt it up. Even if you have to walk with the dog to the bird. Praise it for finding the bird. Do this several times and should help it out. With the dog returning to you after a small hunt, she does not have confidence in herself or was never taught to hunt the area of the fall for long. Just takes more training.

I 've notice my pup does great till she gets super hot and her noise just shuts down. She seems to do it more on a freshly shredded feild.

You guys are all spot on....she has just been introduced to dove scent. She does get hot which does make it difficult to use her nose. She has pretty good blood in he . Lean Mac is her grandfather. I mainly blame myself with this bc I haven't gotten her accustomed to hunt with her nose. I also struggle to get her to fire out on a straight line. So she will take 4 steps on my line and then go left. Like I said she has this stuff down I think it is me and getting her comfortable with me. She is 17 months old and never been in a hunting setting so I was asking to much from her. She would be in a kennel and then run 20 minutes in the field and then back in the kennel where I got her. So just trying to do everything to fast I think.

Well there ya go. Always better to check in with the trainer when you're having difficulties.

Dogs don't transfer well so she may have her classroom down but has had to put it to use yet in different areas.

Angie

I've trained a number of AFT pups that initially would literally step on the duck and still not find it. In the water, they'd swim right past it and never know it was there. But with some work, they have since moved on to be decent hunters and I get good reports on them, now. It's a step by step process of getting them to first use their nose (if they have one), then to trust it, then to use the wind with it.

what is an AFT pup?

I don't want to handle my dog all the way to the bird. I want to handle them to the vicinity and let them do their job. That is, to use their nose to hunt 'em up then bring them back. To get started, forget the big hunting picture. Start indoors, with simple nose work with no distractions so that use of the nose is the only thing the dog has to focus on. Hide something like canned dog food under a cup, place three or more cups upside down and let pup sniff out the treat. Gradually make it harder by moving the cups further away from each other, adding more cups and by using a less 'smelly' treat. Once he knows the game, he'll willingly use his nose to find the treat, even when it gets harder. Then move the game outside, to medium cover. Add distance. Don't forget to consider wind and initially, don't work against it. Either work where there is no wind, or let the wind help. Once pup is finding the treat in medium cover, switch out to game birds or scented bumpers. Praise lavishly, since he can't eat his prize. Be using the 'back' command with this, since that's what he'll be hearing in a hunt situation. Never set it up so he can use his eyes, but MUST use his nose. Next steps come once pup is able to consistently find birds within 30-40 yards with no wind, in medium cover. AT that point, he will simply know how to use his nose - but he must then learn to trust it and finally to work it, taking wind into consideration and using it to help him find the birds.

Are you teaching them to find birds or dog food bowls?

Robby

I did laugh at first because it struck me as funny... one would assume if the dog was at the trainers, it worked with birds. (I took it for granted when I first read his post) But then I thought again... Sadly, you're right, Angie. I've actually seen this myself.

AFT - American Field Trial (referring to the main bloodlines in the dogs pedigree & where/how they attained their titles.)

I'm training them to retrieve bowls, Robby. I figure why mess with dead birds and all that cleaning, if the dog can just go get you a bowl of food?

OK, seriously... read the post. This is an OLFACTORY TEST FOR A DOG'S SCENTING ABILITY AND/OR TO HAVE THE DOG FOCUS ON SCENTING ONLY - without distractions. You then transition to add distance, distractions and then you transfer the activity to real birds.

We test all of our gun dog prospect puppies in this way, for the exact reason the OP pointed out - it's hard to hunt over a dog with no nose. If we sell a gun dog, it better be able to use it's nose.

At our kennel, if the dog doesn't have a nose, he ain't selling as a gun dog.

Same for a SAR dog. That would be SAR.... Search And Rescue.

American Field...is a pointing dog registry.
AKC- American Kennel Club -registry for all breeds. Recognizes retriever field trials.

K-2 buys washout FT dogs to train as Bomb Dogs-and uses FTrial trainers to teach them.

You don't have a clue when you talk about Field Trialers trying to breed out the sense of smell. Some dogs are better at that than others, the same as eyesight.

Our training methods may be different, and what works for you definately wont work for me. Until you stand beside a FC/AFC in an open, you should keep your opinions about Field Trial Retrievers to yourself.

Robby

It's a public forum, Robby. And I totally expect any time that I post, that someone will disagree with my opinion. But we should still share. That's the beauty of the forum, just like a free country. Imagine if we were all made to keep our opinions to ourselves, just because someone else might have a differing opinion - or way to do something. That would make not only for a very boring world, but an uncreative and non-progressing one as well.

Now, I totally agree that what works for you and what works for me are two very different things. I would venture to say that's the value in both of our postings (save the unwarranted attacks.) People can pick and choose from the information provided from a variety of perspectives and come up with something that works for them.

Even better, when they return with success from that creative blend, we have yet a THIRD way of doing things - and that's a win-win all around.

So, like I said earlier - "I'm going to get flamed for this (thanks for proving that true), but I'm going to weigh in anyway." That's what this forum is for.

I agree- it's a public forum, and you portray yourself as a pro-so be professional and don't talk about what you don't know. You raise alot of puppies-and I would surmise you wouldn't like being considered a puppy mill, or raising labs with no retrieving desire? Hopefully I've made my point.

Done with this

Robby

I guess I and my buddy are lucky, we always just hunt our pups and let them grow up around other dogs who were also hunting..My
old Lab, Hunter, has a white nose and toes now, but at about 8 he
started pointing Quail in So. Texas all on his own..My older Son
and one of my buddies had taken him out at lunch..it was very interesting..he is not a pointer, but he did hold birds and does
even now when hunted..I applaude trainers but many do not use a
lot or any real hunting situations or even shoot around the dogs
much. When younger I handled a number of dogs who competed and
found most of them poor to use when only hunting..none were Labs.DD

Robby seems to know everything, the forum name should be changed to Robby's hunting forum so we can all direct our questions to him

I will talk about my opinion... which is what I stated I was sharing. I never attempt to present my opinion as anything other than what it is - an opinion. And I am content to let the OP's take it or leave it. But if I don't weigh in, they don't have the option - do they?

So, please don't try to tell others what they can and can not talk about on a forum that is designed to share information regarding hunting dogs. I would hope that you also will conduct yourself as a professional. IMHO that means contributing in a positive way, to constructive debate. It would be fool hearty to think that only the opinion of folks who run field trials are of any value to owners & handlers of hunting dogs. After all, this is a HUNTING FORUM and I breed, raise and train HUNTING dogs. Since my goals and the goals of many hunters are the same for our dogs, I post in hopes that they may find something useful in the information I share. If it's not of use to you, that's fine - why not just move on?

Perhaps you didn't make your point or I failed to catch it, but I'm not what sure what it is you are getting at by tossing around terms like "puppy mill." Besides, I hardly think one to two litters a year is a "lot of puppies." Is this the point at which I am supposed to get upset or worried and feel compelled to defend my kennel? Should I be on the defensive simply because my philosophies are different than yours? If so, then no - you didn't make your "point" if in fact, the point was to intimidate, manipulate or coerce me into refraining from comment.

You brought up the term "professional." Why don't we both conduct ourselves as such and agree to disagree on this topic? After all, we do and have agreed on many others. It's ok to not agree on all things, all of the time.

I appreciate you guys sharing opinions earlier in the week. My dog was a beast in the field this weekend and has a great nose come to find out. No dummies all week and only worked on dove wings in the back yard all week. She was great and had a blast.i will post pics a little later. Now one issue I had that I neverhadbefore is she was marking birds when they fell and took off a couple times before I sent her. This has never been an issue before but this is her first time hunting not doing dummy's and live birds in a field trial setting. Again she did fantastic this weekend but how do I nip this in the bud before it becomes an issue. Thanks so much for all you guys opinion. It helps amatuers ike me.

That's awesome! So glad to hear it and thanks for sharing! As far as pup breaking on an early career hunt - no big deal. That's really common. They get excited! The way I see it, you can always put brakes on a dog, but there's nothing you can do if they don't have drive. Steadiness will come with time, if you keep working with her and it sure sounds like you will. Best of success to you!