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Re: O'Connor fans [Re: dee] #3422557 07/30/12 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: dee
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie


Uh,you do realize a 6MM is simply the original .244 Remington,don't you? The 6MM and .243 are,for all practical respects,identical.


Minus case capacity


Which =100-150fps advantage to the Remington.


Pretty big difference in a 80-100 gr bullet



Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

https://secure.qgiv.com/for/gtgoh/mobile
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: BOBO the Clown] #3423069 07/30/12 03:39 AM
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Not really, if it matters that much bump up to .25.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Joc270tribute] #3423094 07/30/12 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: Joc270tribute
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
And,BTW,I have read just about everything O'Connor has ever written and at least two biographies about him and have never seen anyone say he was a shill for Winchester. In fact,the biographies tout his independence compared to today's gun writers,mentioning that the only perk he ever got from Winchester were the hunting trips taken on their properties (which were provided to many in the outdoor industry by several different manufacturers). His writing contains scant information about his weaponry and bullets-they are often mentioned but never focused on-so I am skeptical of your accusations.

Not saying what you say is not true but I am asking for your sources of information.


Permit me to step into this fray. I agree with Nogalus Prairie. I am Jack O'Connor's elderly son and I can say with absolutely certainty that my father never was a shill for Winchester or any other gun company. While I am here, I have an update on the Jack O'Connor tribute rifles. Production started this month on the standard tribute but won't start on the customs until September, with a total run capped at around 950, or about 450 standards and 500 customs. -- Bradford O'Connor


welcome to the forum.



lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: kmon11] #3451759 08/07/12 09:12 PM
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While I can hardly hope to improve upon Bradford O'Connor's final word, let me add that it constantly amazes me how people who have not read Jack O'Connor are so ready to question or denounce him based on shared, uninformed opinion.
I believe I own every book on shooting and hunting O'Connor ever wrote and have read and re-read every one of them many, many, many times. I still use them for research and reference purposes when I am not reading them for the sheer pleasure of O'Connor's writing. I believe I have also read every column and story he wrote for Outdoor Life and Petersen's Hunting.
While the misinformation posted by some of the people on this site and all over the internet would take a lifetime to sort out, there are at least a few things that can be swatted down immediately.
O'Connor never pushed the .270 to the exclusion of everything else. He frequently stated that he believed the .30-06 was the best all-around caliber for hunting most N. American game and that if limited to one rifle to hunt the world it would be the .375 H&H Magnum. He wrote highly of, among other calibers, the 7X57, the .280, the .284, the 7mm magnum and similar mid-weight cartridges. He said the ideal brush rifle would be a fast-handling pump, lever or semi-auto chambererd in .33-.35 caliber utilizing a fairly heavy, moderate velocity bullet. He favored the .416 Rigby for the heaviest African game and played a big role in that cartridge's revival. He believed the .270 was close to ideal for open-country, western hunting of game from mule deer-sized game on down, and said that in the hands of a good and restrained shot it was perfectly adequate for elk. He believed the cartridge to be well-balanced and credited much of its original popularity on its original 130 grain bullet, which he called the first successful bullet designed to hold up under high velocities.
Far from favoring the .243 over the 6mm Remington, he repeatedly noted that the 6mm (then .244) was a better cartridge design, but that Remington had erred by giving its original rifle a 1-in-12 twist designed to stabilize a 90-gr. bullet (Remington had viewed the new chambering as more of a varmint than deer rifle).
O'Connor was neither a "big-bore" nor a "high-velocity" proponent. He was a proponent of using the most powerful gun you shoot well to place a well-constructed bullet in a vital area. Would anyone care to argue with that?
Far from being a "shill" for the shooting industry, he was well known for his inflexible honesty and for his refusal to bend his opionions to suit industry needs or desires. As a gun writer, he brought the same sense of journalistic ethics to his work as he cautioned other young writers to follow when he founded the journalism dept. at the University of Arizona.
Jack O'Connor was, in sum, an elegant and gifted writer whose opinions were based on a lifetime of hunting on every continent except Antarctica and Australia. Nor was he simply a "guided" hunter. His formative years were spent hunting totally unguided in Arizona, Texas and Mexico. He was a Weatherby award winner and was voted into the Hunting Hall of Fame. If you actually read what he wrote, as opposed to bandying about what some people CLAIM he wrote, you will find that his opinions, recommendations and shooting knowledge or as valuable and valid now as they were when he first put them to paper in the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s, the 1970s and the 1980s. You will not find many other gunwriters whose work remains of equal value over so long a span of time. In short, he was the dean of hunting writers for half a century, and in many ways remains so more than three decades after his death.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: KendallCohunter] #3451789 08/07/12 09:21 PM
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One correction: "the 1970s and the 1980s" in my previous post should have read "1960s and 1970s." Seems you always miss something when you self-edit.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Chuck McDonald] #3451986 08/07/12 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Chuck McDonald
Originally Posted By: nsmike
O'Connor formed his opinions during the hey day of the pre 64 Model 70, the Models 21, and 12 and Winchester ammunition was really good. Things changed in 64 with the revamped Model 70. The ammunition also changed, about the same time, with the introduction of ball powders. His problem was that he never changed and became obsolete. He also lived is an era where high quality custom work was relatively inexpensive.
I agree and disagree, if it wasn't for him the .243 and .270 would not have taken off like they did. The reason why, he was being paid by Winchester to write about them. The 6mm Rem and 280 paid the price for this even though many considered them both to be superior rounds, especially the 6mm.


Chuck: It wasn't O'Connor who killed the 244 (6mm) and the 280. It was Remington's stupid marketing. As to the 244, Remington envisioned it as a varmint round. And its twist was too slow to accomodate 100gr bullets. The market fell for the handy little Model 70 Featherweight deer rifle, and there were apparently a lot more deer hunters than varmint hunters. In addition, the difference between the M70 FWT and the clunky Remington M721 made it an even easier choice. I remember looking at them both, and I still have the M70 243 FWT that my dad bought Mom in 1955.

As to the 280: The 270 had a 30 year head start. And then Remingtion introduced the 280 in their M740 semi-auto(!). They also lowered the operating pressure of the 280 which ensured that it did NOT match the ballistics of the 270. And I'm and unabashed 280 fan. Built my first on on a rebarreled M700 in 1967, and still have it.

As to being a shill for Winchester, O'Connor, if you read his stuff, admitted that the 280 was a better cartridge than the 270 (althought the are really two peas in a pod), when loaded to its potential. And his last rifle, which was not finished until after his death, was a 280 built on a Ruger M77 action.

Finally, I would love to see the data you have to back up this statement:

"The general concensus regarding the 270, is that it would have faded into obsucrity if not for Jack O'Connor".

Jack's been dead for almost 35 years, wonder why the 270 hasn't faded away without him to tout it?


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: JJH] #3452017 08/07/12 10:29 PM
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Also, if you think O'Connor was a shill for Winchester, you should read what he had to say to them when they showed him the "new" model 70 they crapped up after 1964. He did thank them however for letting him see the design beforehand so that he could be sure to lay in a supply of the current rifles before it was too late.


Last edited by Moondog; 08/07/12 10:29 PM.
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Joc270tribute] #3452039 08/07/12 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: Joc270tribute
Permit me to step into this fray. I agree with Nogalus Prairie. I am Jack O'Connor's elderly son and I can say with absolutely certainty that my father never was a shill for Winchester or any other gun company. While I am here, I have an update on the Jack O'Connor tribute rifles. Production started this month on the standard tribute but won't start on the customs until September, with a total run capped at around 950, or about 450 standards and 500 customs. -- Bradford O'Connor


Glad to meet you sir! I have read your father's books.....

welcome



HnF

"Prayer is when you talk to the Lord, Meditation is when you listen to what he says"
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Hunt n Fish] #3452074 08/07/12 10:47 PM
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I have read a few of the mans' works and find no fault in them, anymore than most writers back then...I knew a few in the 60's
who had Nat'l coverage and attention..most were retired Border
Patrol, or other Lawmen...and I had occasion to shoot w/several
when there was a range on West Ave. in San Antonio...They were
all characters and really great guys..Personally, I've always been one of Mr. OConnor's fans and will continue to be..Good
Hunting..Don Dial, Pipe Creek, Tx


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: kmon11] #3457273 08/09/12 06:32 AM
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I used to read Elmer Keith, Warren Page and Jack O'Conner when I was a kid. Keith was entertaining as hell, but Page and O'Conner made more sense to me. Who knows what Keith really thought, but in his writings he seemed to say that small, fast calibers like a .270 or a .243 were merely popguns, suitable for cottontail rabbits; what you needed was something that would plow through the "boiler room." I can't remember which cartridges he pushed, but it seemed that he'd use elephant rifles on deer and still feel undergunned. Page and O'Conner were far more realistic.

Isn't it great that we have so many calibers (all of which do basically the same thing) that we can endlessly argue about. BTW -- I like the .244 better than the .243, simply because I have a wonderful old Remington 722 I got long before I could shave. I think I paid $80 for it brand new. After all these years, it still shoots better than I do and no one knows how many whitetail deer it's accounted for.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Stormy Weather] #3457609 08/09/12 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Stormy Weather
Who knows what Keith really thought, but in his writings he seemed to say that small, fast calibers like a .270 or a .243 were merely popguns, suitable for cottontail rabbits; what you needed was something that would plow through the "boiler room." I can't remember which cartridges he pushed, but it seemed that he'd use elephant rifles on deer and still feel undergunned.


From what I read of Keith, I think this was maybe because of the poor bullet design/quality available at the early stages of the 30/06 .270 type cartridges. Bigger, heavy bullets had more of a "guarantee" back then that they would perform properly.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: thedoveshooter] #3459087 08/09/12 09:48 PM
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I always figured that at least some of Keith's rants were designed to stimulate readership. But you may be on to something concerning poor bullet design/quality back in the early days of the 20th C.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Stormy Weather] #3459142 08/09/12 09:59 PM
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kmon11 Online Shocked OP
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The bullet designs of the day prompted John Nosler to design the Partition bullet. Lower velocity and bigger bullets that Keith promoted worked, the old cup and core bullets work very well when heavy for caliber and mot pushed hard

Keith was not the most articulate writer, but we can thank him for the 44 Remington Magnum.





Last edited by kmon1; 08/09/12 10:02 PM.

lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: kmon11] #3459213 08/09/12 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: kmon1
The bullet designs of the day prompted John Nosler to design the Partition bullet. Lower velocity and bigger bullets that Keith promoted worked, the old cup and core bullets work very well when heavy for caliber and mot pushed hard

Keith was not the most articulate writer, but we can thank him for the 44 Remington Magnum.



The story about the mule deer at 600 yds with a revolver was too tall for me to swallow (I have never been able to convince my BIL that story was BS. He thought, and still does that Keith was quite the guru)! Same with Col. Charles Askins' "Killer Bulls of the Rio Bravo" (a story about hunting brush cattle along the Rio Grande (Please!). I was a fan of some of their contemporaries, ie. Skeeter Skelton, Russell Annabel (sp?), and especially, Jack O'Conner.
O'Conner didn't convince me about the .270. The old gun that my uncle carried in the ranch truck did that when I killed my first head of game with it....okay, it was only a javelina, but I was hooked.


Last edited by Pointer; 08/09/12 10:26 PM.
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Pointer] #3459247 08/09/12 10:33 PM
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kmon11 Online Shocked OP
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Originally Posted By: Pointer
Originally Posted By: kmon1
The bullet designs of the day prompted John Nosler to design the Partition bullet. Lower velocity and bigger bullets that Keith promoted worked, the old cup and core bullets work very well when heavy for caliber and mot pushed hard

Keith was not the most articulate writer, but we can thank him for the 44 Remington Magnum.



The story about the mule deer at 600 yds with a revolver was too tall for me to swallow (I have never been able to convince my BIL that story was BS. He thought, and still does that Keith was quite the guru)! Same with Col. Charles Askins' "Killer Bulls of the Rio Bravo" (a story about hunting brush cattle along the Rio Grande (Please!). I was a fan of some of their contemporaries, ie. Skeeter Skelton, Russell Annabel (sp?), and especially, Jack O'Conner.
O'Conner didn't convince me about the .270. The old gun that my uncle carried in the ranch truck did that when I killed my first head of game with it....okay, it was only a javelina, but I was hooked.


Were you there? Have you ever seen some of the great pistol shots and what they can do? Will never say it is not possible, and I was not there to see it, so I do not know.



lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: kmon11] #3459300 08/09/12 10:55 PM
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....but he was aiming at the sun grin


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: rifleman] #3459343 08/09/12 11:13 PM
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just out of curiosity, I plugged a 44Mag, 240gr factory load into a ballistic calculator.

Sighted in at 100yds, the bullet would be 54 FEET low at 600 yards. Time of flight is over 2 seconds. And remaining energy is about 220 ft-lbs.

Hellova shot! grin


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: JJH] #3459383 08/09/12 11:31 PM
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If I am not mistaken, the muley was running. I do admit it does make for a great story.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: JJH] #3459424 08/09/12 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: JJH
just out of curiosity, I plugged a 44Mag, 240gr factory load into a ballistic calculator.

Sighted in at 100yds, the bullet would be 54 FEET low at 600 yards. Time of flight is over 2 seconds. And remaining energy is about 220 ft-lbs.

Hellova shot! grin



Would have thought more drop out of a pistol.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: rifleman] #3462574 08/10/12 10:39 PM
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Not only was the muley running, but Elmer's horse was probably bucking when he made the shot.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: Stormy Weather] #3462670 08/10/12 11:02 PM
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kmon11 Online Shocked OP
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tue deer had been wounded hy another hunter. The account I read of the incident Keith was trying to put down a wounded deer.



lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: O'Connor fans [Re: kmon11] #3462770 08/10/12 11:42 PM
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HAVE READ SOME O'CONNER, ALWAYS LIKED ASKINS
AND CAPSTICK BETTER.

O'CONNER WAS A WINCHESTER SALESMAN.
ASKINS WROTE IN HIS BOOK ABOUT WRITING
TO ASKINS SR. TO SEND A REMINGTON 11 TO
SHOOT BORDER JUMPERS WITH (HMM) THEN IN
ANOTHER PART OF HIS BOOK SAID HE WOULD
NEVER USE A SEMI UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
SKELTON MUSED A LOT.

BUT THEY ALL KNEW HOW TO HUNT AND DIDN'T
WORRY ABOUT WHAT JOE BLOW GANGSTA ON
FACEBOOK OR YOUTUBE SAID ABOUT THIS WAS
THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD OR
THIS HERE THING SUCKS REALLY BAD. THEY
COULD HUNT IN THE FIELD UNLIKE A LOT OF
MODERN YO-YOS THAT FOLLOW BILLY-BOB'S
ONE AND ONLY GEN-YOO-WINE OUTDOOR
LAST-WORD ON ANTHING BLOG


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: KendallCohunter] #3463308 08/11/12 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: KendallCohunter
While I can hardly hope to improve upon Bradford O'Connor's final word, let me add that it constantly amazes me how people who have not read Jack O'Connor are so ready to question or denounce him based on shared, uninformed opinion.
I believe I own every book on shooting and hunting O'Connor ever wrote and have read and re-read every one of them many, many, many times. I still use them for research and reference purposes when I am not reading them for the sheer pleasure of O'Connor's writing. I believe I have also read every column and story he wrote for Outdoor Life and Petersen's Hunting.
While the misinformation posted by some of the people on this site and all over the internet would take a lifetime to sort out, there are at least a few things that can be swatted down immediately.
O'Connor never pushed the .270 to the exclusion of everything else. He frequently stated that he believed the .30-06 was the best all-around caliber for hunting most N. American game and that if limited to one rifle to hunt the world it would be the .375 H&H Magnum. He wrote highly of, among other calibers, the 7X57, the .280, the .284, the 7mm magnum and similar mid-weight cartridges. He said the ideal brush rifle would be a fast-handling pump, lever or semi-auto chambererd in .33-.35 caliber utilizing a fairly heavy, moderate velocity bullet. He favored the .416 Rigby for the heaviest African game and played a big role in that cartridge's revival. He believed the .270 was close to ideal for open-country, western hunting of game from mule deer-sized game on down, and said that in the hands of a good and restrained shot it was perfectly adequate for elk. He believed the cartridge to be well-balanced and credited much of its original popularity on its original 130 grain bullet, which he called the first successful bullet designed to hold up under high velocities.
Far from favoring the .243 over the 6mm Remington, he repeatedly noted that the 6mm (then .244) was a better cartridge design, but that Remington had erred by giving its original rifle a 1-in-12 twist designed to stabilize a 90-gr. bullet (Remington had viewed the new chambering as more of a varmint than deer rifle).
O'Connor was neither a "big-bore" nor a "high-velocity" proponent. He was a proponent of using the most powerful gun you shoot well to place a well-constructed bullet in a vital area. Would anyone care to argue with that?
Far from being a "shill" for the shooting industry, he was well known for his inflexible honesty and for his refusal to bend his opionions to suit industry needs or desires. As a gun writer, he brought the same sense of journalistic ethics to his work as he cautioned other young writers to follow when he founded the journalism dept. at the University of Arizona.
Jack O'Connor was, in sum, an elegant and gifted writer whose opinions were based on a lifetime of hunting on every continent except Antarctica and Australia. Nor was he simply a "guided" hunter. His formative years were spent hunting totally unguided in Arizona, Texas and Mexico. He was a Weatherby award winner and was voted into the Hunting Hall of Fame. If you actually read what he wrote, as opposed to bandying about what some people CLAIM he wrote, you will find that his opinions, recommendations and shooting knowledge or as valuable and valid now as they were when he first put them to paper in the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s, the 1970s and the 1980s. You will not find many other gunwriters whose work remains of equal value over so long a span of time. In short, he was the dean of hunting writers for half a century, and in many ways remains so more than three decades after his death.


+1 - Great summary.


Re: O'Connor fans [Re: A.B.] #3464347 08/11/12 04:34 PM
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whos jack oconner




Re: O'Connor fans [Re: vanguard] #3464480 08/11/12 05:37 PM
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That question shows you to be very young, or not very knowledgeable!
I could not improve on what KendallCoHunter said.
I can't believe Bradford O'Connor comes on here and it goes over everyone's head, except a couple. I had a chance to meet him at SHOT in January when examples of the Tribute rifles were shown.
The real O'Connor rifle was there also. I had talked to Bradford on the phone near 25 years ago. He was instrumental in helping me track down Jack O'Connor's Ruger No.1 in .375 H&H.
It's the top one in the linked photo.
http://classicsportingarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/3_21_guns3.jpg



El Numero Uno
"I do Ruger No.1 rifles"
www.classicsportingarms.com
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