So I picked up a puppy last sunday, he is 10 weeks old. He has done very well socializing the last two days. I walk him down to the lake, he has taken to swimming very naturally running straight into the water. I have been working on building his retrieving drive once a day by throwing a bumper but have some questions. I am planning on sending him to training at 4 1/2 months but want to work with him to get him as ready as possible.

1) He has no interest in chasing the bumper. However he loves to chase empty water bottles. He will chase them on land and in the water, I think he likes the sound they make when he chews on them. I have tried dragging the bumper around to get him interested in it to no avail. Is using an empty water bottle at this point ok or a big no-no?

2) He will not bring anything back, even in the water. He will run after anything that you throw and jump on it, and chew it, but will not pick it up and carry it around. He chases the bottle into the water and pushes it around till he gets it in his mouth and then loses interest and spits it out to swim elsewhere. Is there a way to work on this? Is this normal for a puppy?

3) What age should I introduce him to gunfire and birds? Is it best to introduce him to live or dead birds first? Can you teach him to retrieve using dead birds at this age?

Thanks in advance.

If he's chomping down on plastic bottles and running off with things he is supposed to be returning with, I wouldn't put a bird in his mouth. That'll just lead to something else you'll need to fix. The last thing I'd want a puppy to learn is to tear up birds. I regard pups that behave this way as being hard mouthed. It's inherited, but can be remedied.

Our pups start hearing "gunfire" at two weeks of age. The earlier the better. That said, it's more a matter of HOW you introduce the gunfire, than WHEN.

If the pup wasn't chewing on and abandoning his marks, I'd say what he's doing in the water is because he hasn't learned how to hold it & swim without gagging. But because of the way he handles the mark on land (keeping it for himself, acting dominant, chewing it, etc.) it seems more likely that in this case, he's leaving it behind because he can't derive the pleasure of chewing it in the water.

Pup sounds very hard mouthed, which goes hand-in-hand with a more dominant temperament. That's not a hard and fast rule, there are exceptions - more docile, but likes to chew/run off or dominant that will return, but for the most part, dominant pups tend to want to 'own' the mark. Again, that can be fixed. Most trainers will do it via force fetch. We have a different way of handling it, but in the end, either way, you'll end up with a pup that returns to hand as he should.

Are you following a program?

I wouldn't use an empty water bottle. You'll establish that as a fetch object which could lead to issues later. Try a doken dove, teal atb, or bumper/paint roller with wings. It wouldn't hurt to get a few clipped pigeons going either. And start using a check cord to encourage him to return.

You picked up a puppy from where ? If you got him in a parking lot, save your money and skip the trainer

Try something besides a bumper, they love tennis balls, try that instead. Also you want to get the pup exited about it and praise him up if he picks it up. As far as hard mouthed goes, it is way too early to tell he is only 10 weeks old. All dogs love to chew on water bottles because of the sound they make so dont worry about that. Just find something that he will chase after and pick up an use that it doesnt have to be a bumper. As far as using birds the earlier the better. Get him some clipped wing pigeons to chase. Also as someone else has already said use a check cord. I agree with MS1454 if the pup is not from quality genetics the trainer will be a waste of time and money.

What the OP described, from the way I understand it, is almost always tied to a hard mouth. It follows a pretty discernible pattern that begins earlier than 10 weeks. Not just because the pup likes to chew on empty bottles - they ALL like to do that... but cuz pup doesn't want to return to sender. Hard mouth is a function of dominance - pup hunts for SELF, not other. That's just been my experience time and again.

I agree it doesn't have to be a bumper. On tiny pups I use a paint roller, sock, wash cloth or cloth napkin - easy to grab, hold and fun for the pup with all the 'motion.'

The earlier the better is true with birds - but not with a hard mouth. One taste of flesh and you've got yourself a problem to fix. Here are three videos for comparison, pups are 10, 12 & 15 weeks old. The predicted hard mouth is exactly that today and the pup that respected the bird & handler still respects them today. Glad I went to "Plan B" on the hard mouth and didn't rush it with the bird.

Respectful pup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i26njM2n4TI

Hard mouth on attempted retrieve - Blue was 10 weeks old in this video and proved he was very dominant, so I expected a hard mouth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uFOlnSG1ZI

Hard mouth with first bird. I was not at all surprised, given Blue's previous performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J3IYUBWUqE

I personally wouldn't worry about him chewing up water bottles. They make the perfect puppy toy.

Retrieve with him in the house with a paint roller or toy. Put him in a hallway so he has to come back to you. Try everyday and I guarantee he will retrieve before you know it. The big ole outside world is too distracting at this point.

Angie

Hard mouth and dominance have nothing to do with each other. Hard mouth is when a dog mouths the bird or picks up and throws in air or pull wings off or chomps down on it and bites, if the sog wont give it to you that goes back to hold and FF. Just because he doesn't want to give it up doesn't mean he is hard mouthed. If a dog is a fanatic retriever and won't give up a bird they a lot of times won't give up a tou or bumper but doesn't mean they chomp down on it as dominance. That's how it's always been explained to me but I may be wrong.
What does Angie or CCR say?

Iron spike, I just now read your first reply and agree with some of that. I'm sorry I thought inyournlast post you were saying that they were one in the same

I would get a clipped wing pigeon and throw it and have dog on check cord. Throw bird and have him chase after, as soon as he gets it in mouth give him lots of praise and pull the cord in even if the pups is not in his mouth. Don't do it more than 2-3 times. If he kills the pigeon so be it. I have seen lots of pups chomp down on one and kill it, doesn't mean they will be hard mouthed. If you arebtakingbthe pup to a pro at 4 1/2 mo old the best thing you could do is just socialize the pup as much as possible. Lots of swimming so he loves the water and some obedience. Don't get concerned with the rest, a good pro will correct his issues. What pro are you using?

Maybe my first post was misinterpreted. I am using bumpers with him in the hall every evening. I get him real excited and throw it a few feet down the hall. He runs after it and pounces on it usually, sometimes will put it in his mouth, and then typically loses intrest and runs back to me to be praised.

Last night he brought it back to me by the rope two out of the three times so maybe he is starting to get it....

I spent a lot of time researching english golden retrievers. Since they are all from england this took a lot of time to find the right one. His mother has international titles and his father is used for hunting but has no titles. I did not pick him up from a parking lot, he was actually the cost of about 3 or 4 top notch labs....

My biggest fear is doing something to ruin him before he goes to training since I have never personally raised or trained a hunting dog before. I am taking him to Marks-a-lot kennels this saturday to get a feel for the trainers and the facility. I have done quite a bit of reading on the places around this area and that one seems to be top of the line? It's at least how I am leaning now...

I have searched online, where does one get a clipped pigeon around the DFW area?

Thanks for all the help, it is much appreciated.

Keep sessions short and sweet. Leave him wanting more, and you're not going to ruin him. Laying the foundation for obedience, and possibly starting to formalize, is all you will do before dropping him off at 4.5 months.

Check Craigslist, flea markets, feed stores to buy pigeons. If you have access to places they roost or hang out, you can trap/catch them.

Criagslist has one pigeon for sale for $150 as a pet.

No feed stores seem to have them.

How do you trap/catch them?

$150???? Usually ~$5-10 a bird and tell the sellers they will be pets. Some people will freak if you tell them they will be used for dog training.

At night with a flashlight and fishing net if you have access to a parking garage, barn, roof top, etc. where they roost. You could also build/buy a trap and put in those same places. If you have some that hang out in a parking lot you could bait them and catch them with a long fishing net too.

Search "Pigeons" on c-list...it will get you a few more results

First of all SLOW DOWN, the puppy is only 10 weeks old. You can't expect it to be making water retrieves the day you bring it home. Play fetch in a hallway with the pup so there's no where else for it to go doesn't have to be a bumper at this point. Stop before he gets bored might only be 1 or 2 retrieves at this point make it fun for the pup so it wants more.

Also give him a day off. Or even two. Don't have tou get him retrieving everyday

OK, I still dont think you can say his pup is hard mouthed just from his OP. I have seen pups go crazy and chomp on bird wings and chew them up while running away from you. These same dogs turned out to have very soft mouths. Just because a pup doesnt return on a retrieve at 10 weeks old doesnt mean he is dominate and will be hard mouthed. I agree with Angie that the pup is probably distracted by the big ol world that is opening up before his eyes and would rather explore it than return to his owner. To say a dog is hard mouthed at 10 weeks old because he is not returning with his retrieves would be a little presumptious to say the least. I also agree that the OP is probably moving a little to fast and expecting to much to fast and that the pup needs breaks, he doesnt have to retrieve everyday.

Huck, those same dogs can turn out to have very soft mouths as a result of training. I acknowledged that in my first response - a hard mouth can and often is fixed. Force fetch will hide a hard mouth in a parent dog, but it will show up in the pups. Maybe what I consider to be hard mouthed is not the same thing to you. I see a good amount of British dogs that have a natural return to hand, tractable temperaments and very soft mouths, so we may have a different basis of comparison and/or baseline on this.

My comment on the pup's run-offs IS presumptuous... but that's what the OP is asking for - us to presume a number of possibilities of what the problem and/or solution might be. Based on how I understood the post, I offered one possibility. By virtue of the fact that none of us knows the dog or has first hand knowledge about what is actually happening, we all have to be somewhat presumptuous when we weigh in with some thoughts.

Either way, my post also says it'll all be handled in training. There's nothing there that is alarming or unusual about what he described in his pup.

Run from him. When u throw an object and he picks it up but starts to lag or gets ready to put it down, I've found that if you run from them, they bring whatever they have in their mouth all the way to you. Only then praise him. If he, at 10 weeks, doesn't bring it back, act like nothing happened. Neither praise or scold. Pick up Water Dog, its a good book for novice trainers, like me.

Quack Whacker, thanks for the useful tips. I have read and am trying to follow the tri-tronics retriever training book, but it does not discuss the appropriate ages to start the dogs on things or the incorrect responses that may happen, hence the nature of my questions.

Somehow many of the responses, due to a lack of reading my original posts, have insinuated that the puppy runs off with what I throw. This however is not the case at all, the dog always comes back on a whistle or a call, just many times empty handed. I have posted a video below showing this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfpEd6NFPiE&feature=plcp

So is the correct response to ignore him and offer no praise when he chases the bumper but then comes back to me without it? I typically quit at this point and put the bumper away but praise him for coming back...

On a side note he picked up the sit whistle yesterday in under 5 minutes. I was able to blow the whistle with him off the leash in the field and with him in the lake and he would sit down and face me with eye contact every time. I was stoked for this!

Thanks for the help again to the people that have left beneficial comments.

The best thing you can do for you & your pup is get Bill Hillman's DVD, Training a Retriever Puppy. His video starts out with a 12 week old pup. It's a pricey video but worth the investment.

Great advice! When they're running, they're so excited and busy keeping up, they don't have time to think and drop it.

Thanks for the clarification. I did understand your OP to mean that he did a few things which concerned you: either ran off, laid down with it to chew on it, that he chewed on water bottles and that he didn't return with anything you threw.

If he's only coming back empty-muzzled SOMETIMES, I'd make a big deal over when he's done it right and yes... no reaction when he doesn't bring it back. Do you have a friend with a dog that retrieves? Seeing another dog often trips the trigger - shows them what to do and makes the want to, just for competition's sake.

I am NOT an expert, so take this with a pound of salt, but I'm right there w/you...just a few weeks ahead.

My pup didn't want anything to do with dummies. The only thing I could get him to retrieve was a plush goose that squeaked...so that's what we retrieved with. Every morning...before breakfast...3 to 4 retrieves a day.

At about 14 weeks I started mixing in a dummy. It happens to be a Real Duck brand orange puppy dummy, but I'm not sure this is terribly important.

After about two weeks of mixing it up I retired the goose toy and am only using the dummy. He is now retrieving the dummy on both land and water @ 17 weeks. He is not bringing it all the way to hand, but dropping it a few feet out from me, so we're working on HOLD...but that's another topic

Good Luck!