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 Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
#3224451
05/15/12 12:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Will Lee
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While at the range this past Friday I got this pattern doing some load development work. Never seen this pattern before. All info is on the picture except; 270 Win, range 100 yards, primer CCI-250. I am 98% sure that all 4 rounds were with the POA on the black square.Would really appreciate some opinions. Will 
Always Remember the "6P' Principal
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: Will Lee]
#3224546
05/15/12 01:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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Barrel got hot and changed POI.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: dee]
#3224574
05/15/12 01:22 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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ChadTRG42
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Tell me exactly how you had the rifle supported- front and rear.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: dee]
#3224579
05/15/12 01:25 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Will Lee
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Barrel got hot and changed POI. Waited 5 minutes between each 4 round test. Barrel was not hot. will
Always Remember the "6P' Principal
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3224581
05/15/12 01:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Will Lee
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Tell me exactly how you had the rifle supported- front and rear. In that Lead Sled Solo we had a discussion about a few days ago. Been thinking of that a lot lately. Gently strapped down barrel on front rest, not to tight but... Will.
Last edited by Will Lee; 05/15/12 01:28 AM.
Always Remember the "6P' Principal
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: Will Lee]
#3224602
05/15/12 01:33 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,978
ChadTRG42
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LOL! What did I tell you! I'm cracking up over here! This is why I don't use them. You will get POI shifts, and they are almost always vertical. It has to do with how the rifle recoils. When you start anchoring the rifle down, either from the rear or from the front, it changes everything up. And if you come off the gun at all from your cheek or your shoulder, it can change how the gun recoils, which will effect your POI. It looks like you have a great load worked up. Lose all the shooting gadgets, and shoot off a sandbaged front and rear bag. Get behind the gun perfectly straight, with good cheek position, pull the trigger straight back with a 90 degree trigger finger, and don't come off the gun at all (cheek or shoulder) for the 4-5 rounds you are shooting for groups. This will help improve the consistancy of the shots.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3224629
05/15/12 01:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Will Lee
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LOL! What did I tell you! I'm cracking up over here! This is why I don't use them. You will get POI shifts, and they are almost always vertical. It has to do with how the rifle recoils. When you start anchoring the rifle down, either from the rear or from the front, it changes everything up. And if you come off the gun at all from your cheek or your shoulder, it can change how the gun recoils, which will effect your POI. It looks like you have a great load worked up. Lose all the shooting gadgets, and shoot off a sandbaged front and rear bag. Get behind the gun perfectly straight, with good cheek position, pull the trigger straight back with a 90 degree trigger finger, and don't come off the gun at all (cheek or shoulder) for the 4-5 rounds you are shooting for groups. This will help improve the consistancy of the shots. Chad, you deserve a good laugh over this one and also a "I told you so". What an idiot I am, strapping the barrel down. Roger on ditching the gadgets, how about Bi-Pod front sand bag rear? Thanks Chad, Will
Always Remember the "6P' Principal
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: Will Lee]
#3224644
05/15/12 01:50 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,978
ChadTRG42
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Hey, it's not an I told you so, because I hate those myself!
Bipods on hunting rifles are hit and miss. If you have a stock that makes contact with the barrel, I'd say no. If the rifle's stock flexes when you have the bipod deployed and put side to side pressure and the stock moves, I'd say no. If the stock is solid and the barrel free floated, I'd say maybe. If the action is bedded, this will also help with a bipod. But shoot it both ways and see what happens. I know when I do load dev. on a hunting gun, I always shoot it off sandbags in the front under the chamber area and rear sand bag under the butt.
My Howa in 270 I had bedded and I free floated the stock with a dremel tool. This greatly improved my consistancy with a bipod, where before I did the work it would shift around on me some. So, just try it and see.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3224662
05/15/12 01:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Will Lee
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Thanks Chad, I'll try both ways and report back with the results. The gun is a Ruger M77 Hawkeye off the shelf.
Will
Always Remember the "6P' Principal
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: Will Lee]
#3224684
05/15/12 02:03 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,978
ChadTRG42
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Yes, I saw. Years ago when I first got into shooting, my first rifle was my Howa in 270 Win. I shot it a ton. I even took Tac Pro's Precision Rifle Class with it shooting the 135 grain SMK. You should have seen Bill's face when I told him 270! It did great out to 800 yards, though. But at 900 and 1K when the barrel got hot, it just wouldn't shoot that well.
The main thing is to shoot your rifle enough to know what it likes and what it doesn't. Or what causes shots to not go where you planned for.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3225054
05/15/12 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,469
vanguard
Veteran Tracker
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get the stock pillar and glass bedded, i just had this disccussion with the guys at HCR, two groups are bedding issues.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: vanguard]
#3225471
05/15/12 02:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,901
JJH
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COULD be a bedding issue, but not always. Could be something loose (scope base or rings, etc.) or could shooting technique as Chad suggests.
Better to make sure the "free" things are fixed before sending it off to have expensive work done.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: JJH]
#3225510
05/15/12 02:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,599
redchevy
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How do you work the bolt without taking your cheek or shoulder off the gun?
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: redchevy]
#3225592
05/15/12 03:23 PM
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ChadTRG42
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How do you work the bolt without taking your cheek or shoulder off the gun? Just open the bolt, insert new round, and close the bolt. I shoot EVERYTHING in the prone position when testing loads. This allows for the most stabile shooting position. I lay my 5 test rounds on the shooting mat just to my right of my trigger hand. When I shoot a round, I open the bolt and eject the spent round, wait a 15-30 seconds, insert a new round and get ready to shoot again. I hold my position and don't come off the gun at all. I don't want any POI shift due to cheek or shoulder variation from shot to shot when coming off the gun.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3225675
05/15/12 03:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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ChadTRG42
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Here's my typical range set-up when testing loads. I don't have any video of working the bolt that I can find. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuo8LHjZL5MAlso, here's a cool picture of me from a shooting match in AZ. Keep your head and cheek in place, and just work the bolt and watch your shots. 
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3225785
05/15/12 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,599
redchevy
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Ill have to give it a try, but I dont know that I have enough eye relief to open the bolt and reload without picking my head up, but its something to try.
matt
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: redchevy]
#3225872
05/15/12 05:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,542
kmon11
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junior
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Ill have to give it a try, but I dont know that I have enough eye relief to open the bolt and reload without picking my head up, but its something to try.
matt My short actions this is not a problem, some of the long actions and scope choices make it imposible without hitting myself in the face with the bolt. 
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: kmon11]
#3225948
05/15/12 05:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,978
ChadTRG42
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Yes, you need to be able to cycle the bolt without moving your cheek out of place. If the bolt hits your face, the scope is too far away, and needs to be moved further back towards the rear on the action.
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#3229292
05/17/12 12:08 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 330
Mopar 512
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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This is an interesting thread. I have had many groups like this one and have never been able to nail down the cause. But I think I have learned something here and that my shooting technique may be the cause. Next trip to the range I am gonna try shooting prone and try to complete the group without breaking my cheek weld.
Roger
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Re: Anyone Have Any Idea What Caused This??
[Re: Mopar 512]
#3229444
05/17/12 01:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Will Lee
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This is an interesting thread. I have had many groups like this one and have never been able to nail down the cause. But I think I have learned something here and that my shooting technique may be the cause. Next trip to the range I am gonna try shooting prone and try to complete the group without breaking my cheek weld.
Roger Hey Roger, it surely has been a very informative thread. When Chad posted the shooting technique it brought memories back that I had completely forgotten. Back in 1966, while in the military, I took a specialized bolt action rifle training course and the technique Chad described is exactly what I was thought with one exception, our rounds were always in the magazine. We were thought this way because that was how we would be shooting in the field. Will
Last edited by Will Lee; 05/17/12 01:29 AM.
Always Remember the "6P' Principal
Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
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