DISCLAIMER: I am not an expert on this subject by any means. I have never shot anyone, and I hope I never have to. However, I do a lot of reading, as the subject of self-defense, especially self-defense handguns, is very interesting to me.

Recently I have seen a number of threads on here talking about various handgun calibers for daily carry and self-defense. I would like to get this information out in order to hopefully dispel any myths and answer some questions regarding the subject of self-defense handgun calibers. It is my understanding that some folks are under the impression that they need to carry a .45 or other large caliber round for self-defense, and that something like a 9mm or .380 is insufficient. This is simply not the case.

If you are interested in this topic I would strongly urge you to read and periodically re-read, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" by Urey Patrick of the FBI Firearms Training Unit, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense. It is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, and bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers -- pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits your likely engagement scenarios.

The keys are:
- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
- Purchase a consistent, robust performing self-defense load in sufficient quantities then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

Hopefully this (specifically the FBI study) helps answer some questions, I know that FBI FTU read was a real eye opener for me. Again, I am not the be-all end-all expert regarding this subject, I just do a lot of reading. This thread is primarily intended to pass on the FBI article. I am not trying to start any arguments, I am just trying to help educate people on selecting the right self-defense caliber for them, and dispel some myths regarding the subject.

Thanks.

Now thats funny, I recently changed from CORBON ammo in my 45's and 9mm's to FMJ, my reason was looking for as much penetration as possible. Since the hogs started showing up the lighter and faster CORBONS gave me concern. While I still like the CORBONS or Buffalo Bore in my hunting revolvers my defence rounds will be FMJ.

There are numerous articles about this and all bring interesting and valid points to the discussion. One of the things I got from reading these reports is that many people don't really understand the goal of shooting someone with a handgun.

In war, the goal is to kill the enemy. That's best achieved with FMJ bullets since they offer the best chance for full penetration. The reach more vital organs and create two holes in a body. In self defense, the goal moves to incapacitating the enemy quickly. Now you want to stop him/her as quickly as possible and eliminate the threat. That's usually achieved with wadcutter or HP bullets. You've moved from maximum penetration/damage to maximum impact energy. Quite a few articles state that the majority of people shot with HP bullets survive the wound(s).

But as we all know, statitics can be spun to support your personal position. All you can do is read everything available and draw your own conclusions.

I look at it kind of like I do hunting, I want them bleeding out both sides.

With the bleeding from both sides scenario, don't you worry about innocent bystanders? That is the only reason I won't carry fmj.


Shane

In a self defense scenario, the goal is to stop the threat.

With modern defensive ammo the differences between 9, 40 and 45 are MUCH less than most people think.

(and I LOVE a good 1911!)

Read this from THE leading expert

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

If one would look at the casualty data from past wars there is a pretty consistent 3-1 ratio of wounded over killed. The primary reason for this is the requirement of the Geneva Convention that combatants were not allowed to use bullet that flatten or expand, because they were deemed to be inhumane (too much trauma and too many killed). Therefore the signees of the Geneva Convention developed FMJ bullets.

One theory of war is that for ever enemy that is wounded it took 2 of his fellow combatants to attend to him. By wounding 1 you affectively take 3 out of the fight.

Hunters do not go to the field with FMJ bullets because the are too inhumane, they would wound more than they kill. As hunters we use bullets that both expand & penetrate causing massive trauma to internal organs which results in a quick kill and in more humane for the animal.

One last point, any Warrior or LEO will tell you that a wounded person can still kill you.

Will

Damage to vital internal organs and bleeding is what will kill. The reason LE uses expanding HP bullets is because the bullet will expand and cause injury/bleeding to more organs than a comparable FMJ. It boils down to the wound channel created by the bullet. The more vital organs incorporated and affected by the wound channel the greater the lethality of the hit.

Double taps and two to the body, 1 to the head is how we train.

:lol:

That's kind of what I was referring to in my post. Two HP rounds to the chest will likely stun/stop the enemy long enough to put a killing shot to the head. The head shot could be a 22lr and be effective. Many HP pistol bullets will either clog up when passing through heavy clothing or expend most of it's energy expanding before it enters flesh. Which one happens depends on when the expansion occurs. I read one lengthy report (that I linked to an earlier post) which stated that the 45 wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Then at the bottom of the report were comments made by people who actually were involved in shootings. In conflict with the report, the guys that had shot people or witnessed shootings swore by the 45...from their personal experience. Most of what you read is theory. The theories may be based on facts but the interpretation of those facts is a subjective matter. A bullets expansion depends on many things; the cavity remaining open, velocity, impact resistance, etc. I've got 45 Hydrs-Shoks that I shot into a clay bank that show beautiful expansion. I have the same bullets recovered from wooden backstops that show zero expansion because the cavities clogged with wood when they passed through the backstop. If there were one simple rule that applied to all situations, there wouldn't be so many conflicting studies.

Even the good old M1 Carbine wouldn't penetrate the heavy coats that the Chinese were wearing when hit at long ranges. I know a guy that lives in Howe that was hit in the side by a 9mm FMJ while he was mowing his yard. It popped him but didn't penetrate. It bounced off his t-shirt and was lying in the grass. Of course, it came from 1/4 mile away.

I don't buy that at all....

Based on??? You can rest assured that any information from a manufacturer or retailer will tell you the most expensive ammo is best. Read the article linked below. In studies conducted by independent researchers, you'll find roughly the same statistics; except that some state an even higher survival rate. Just in case you can't find it in the article, here's the pertinent paragraph.

"When compared to rifles and shotguns, handguns are not the most potent form of self protection. In fact, the vast majority of people shot with handguns, in excess of 80 percent, survive. Hence, seek to incapacitate an attacker with a combination of skilled shot placement and proven ammunition."

AMMUNITION:
SELF DEFENSE


In the unlikely event that you may not click this link in the article, I put a separate link to it below. It has a wealth of information in it too.

PHYSIOLOGY/PSYCHOLOGY OF A GUN FIGHT

Regarding the presumptive hazards of over-penetration:

"According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard."

Yes, this quote is directly about LE officers, but it is still applicable to armed citizens. You should be worrying about the bullets that completely miss the target rather than those that hit the target and keep going.

No, I should worry about ricochets then, right? The fmj are more likely to bounce all over the place also. That alone along with your stats make my decision...hp's are the best choice.

Shane

PH: When I open a link and read something like this;

"For handguns and rifles, most "preppers" will work towards assembling a cache of at least 1,000 rounds for each firearm.  Remember, those zombies don't come wandering in one at a time.  They come in hoards!"

... It makes me wonder about who posted the link.

A whole lot of going on in this thread.

1. If HP's were such a failure we wouldn't have the FBI lab doing ballistic tests, PD's would be issuing FMJ's and we would have guys like Dr. Roberts around.

2. You want to stop a fight? Shoot your enemy as many times in the upper thoracic cavity and brain (not head) as you can in a short amount of time.

3. Shoot him to the ground (follow him down with your sights) and assess that he is incapacitated. People fall in gun fights and when they are shot. It doesn't mean they are out of the fight. You don't decide when the fight is over, the bad guy does.

4. Mindset wins the fight.

I keep it simple, I realize that, should I have to shoot someone, the press is going to try and make me out to be a monster, so I carry what the cops do. I don't really trust the FBI studies they're all based on experimentation. The law enforcement agency with the most real world experience is the Border Patrol. They investigate and document every shooting including bullet performance, if you want to choose a round to carry, carry what they do. I'm currently carrying Gold Dot 9mm 124gr+P because that what the local cops carry. If asked whhy I carry that load it's because the cops do.

[quote=clharr]

2. You want to stop a fight? Shoot your enemy as many times in the upper thoracic cavity and brain (not head) as you can in a short amount of time.



Bullets are like medicine...they take time to work.

Nice intelligent, mature input to the topic.

You shoot until the pending threat is no longer considered a threat to you or anybody else.

While we're on the topic of "keep shooting," I will add the popular saying that if it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting multiple times. Bullets are cheap, your life is not. There have been a huge amount of cases where the LEO or armed citizen gets the first shot on the aggressor, then is killed because they fail to keep shooting. clharr hit the nail on the head - "shoot him to the ground."

I remember a story at a school I went to back in my NARC days, a FEDERAL agency SPEC OPS group was doing the training on building entry and searches. The story went like this.....

They were lined up outside a door about to make entry, door gets slammed with the door knocker and a distraction device was deployed. They enter and one of the known suspects was in the room, sitting in a chair with a AK across his lap. Point man double tap to the chest, kept going, 2nd man still sees movement double taps him again keeps moving, 3rd man same thing, movement and a double tap into the torso. Well the 4th man said heck with this and did the failure drill, 2 to the chest and 1 to the cranium. All this with H&K MP5's.

After clearing the structure they returned to the suspect in the chair...
A Rocking Chair...Every time he got double tapped the chair rocked back then forth, a perceived threat.

This all happened South of the US border, matter of fact it was said to be South of several borders.

The rules are still the same, Shoot as long as it is a perceived threat. Reload if you need to.

+1, I agree. There is a lot of talk, theories, articles, blogs, and discussions on the science behind shooting a person. Bottom line for me is "IF" I'm ever faced with protecting my family (or myself) will I hesitate? But honestly I hope and pray I never, ever have too.

That being said, I carry mostly 9mm hollow points. Brand is determined mostly by what will feed through the gun 100% of the time. I personally think that trumps the penetration issue. Too many factors on penetration. How much clothing is the bad guy wearing? Leather, cotton, poly? What is the bullet speed out of your particular barrel length? Did you hit a soft tissue spot? Did you hit bone? Way too many uncontrollable factors and for me it's way over thinking it.

9mm is cheap enough to practice a lot, and stockpile. It's made by everybody, every brand, and comes in every option imaginable. That gives me a lot of inexpensive options and testing I can do on what I like. I do go with hollow point because I am WAY more concerned with going through and hitting an unintended target than not going deep enough. Bottom line, I want the bullet to stop and not keep going.

BTW - I do carry .380 a lot too. Usually in shorts. And yes, I've personally decided that .380 is fine for me personally. I believe that it would stop 99.9% of the possible threats I can think of. Everybody always talks about the 300 lb out of control Meth Head to say that .380 is insufficiant. Well, I've been around for almost 40 years and never even seen a 300 lb meth head in person (or tv for that matter).

Don't know if you guys ever watch you tube videos or not, but The YankeeMarshal has some pretty good perspective I think on this subject. He's actually been shot, twice, and talks about how painful it was, and that he cannot imagine a human wanting to keep coming at him with that kind of pain going on. I think it was a .22 also, if I remember right?? I agree with him. Most criminals would stop. Most are looking for the easy, convenient, and least trouble target. Not saying all, but most people (even criminals) don't want to be shot, period.

Bottom line, do all the research you want. Look at balistic data, penetration into all different materials, expansion, etc . . . . But if it ever really does happen will the scenario match exactly what you've planned for? Probably not.

Thats not something I'm going to worry about, unless it's in the house it's going to be a shoot and run situation. The idea of standing there and shooting it out with the bad guy with bullets flying every where is for the movie's. Should I have to shoot through a barrier I want something that will do it, wheter it be a wood door, a metal door, a car door, glass or heavy clothing. Whether a round has the needed penetration to do the job is not something I need on my mind at the time. Years back when officers were carring issued 38's and 45's they found out that the 38 would not penetrate a standard car door and neither would the 45 but the lowley little 9mm with milsurp ammo would with ease. You found a lot of old surplus Hi-Powers and P-38's riding with officers as a secondary personel weapon.