Okay guys.....

I apologize if I sounded like a prick. I just get aggravated when people insist on preaching the "right way" to do things in regards to animal densities, ratios, carrying capacity, etc...

I have lots of experience on the subject. I have worked on ranches with high animal densities (much higher than what I'm talking about in my original post). I have more real life experience with this stuff than a lot of the "professionals" do. Bottom line is there is more than one way to skin a cat....and low animal density is NOT the only way to do it.

I simply asked about Axis vs. Whitetail competition.....I did not ask for people's approval or opinions on running that number of animals on the property. I would just like to stay on topic.



But anyways....

If this happens the way I hope, and we are able to purchase the additional acreage....we will likely just focus on the Whitetail and gradually introduce the Axis. If we notice any significant negative impact, we will simply kill off the Axis and forget about them.

Sounds like you're pretty set on the numbers you want to have. You will run into some other issues as others have mentioned, one we have seen in our 20 acre pens where the deer are heavily feed dependant is you will start to get some foundering (long hooves), and they will eventually go lame and die if you can't catch and cut them.

You may do fine with that # of deer in total, just recognize that you will have to factor in a slightly higher mortality rate, and you're going to have to do something to manage your fawn crop (catching or harvesting a portion of the younger deer). You're not going to be able to take them all from the top end and keep your age structure.

As far as turning a few axis loose, not a big deal since you don't seem to be too concerned about the native browse or feed bill.

IME and IMO you need to decide which you want to raise WT or Axis. I have spent quite a few years dealing with both on ranches and can tell you that your WT will suffer with both species together. Whether you want to hear it or not what has been stated above about CC will come back to haunt you. You can believe or not but in time you will learn and all it will do is cost you money. How much depends on you.
IME 7 Axis or more show up at a feed station and WT leave. If you think you can succeed, then your feed stations need to be close together and 2 per location. At least one station for every 40 acres max or less.
Unless you have deep pockets you need to do some serious research on irrigation. You need 5-10% of total acreage in summer and 5-10% in winter food plots for food plots to be successful. They have to be fenced for you to get any benefit in at least 5-6 field locations. Sandy soils add a ton of farming problems and need fertilizer and PH work. Takes more rain or water with sand and deer can pull plants up in sandy land without the fence ($4/ft minimun for HF to start). You can expect to pay $1000/each acre for irrigation to start. Add in a well costs to that, not just any domestic volume well but a well of at least 100 gpm and 300 gpm is better. Then get electricty to the well (current costs are around $1500 per pole and need a pole every 300-350ft). Pivots are great but can get very costly on small fields. I have used and installed a reel systems and they are great for small grains and not so great for legume spring plots. I have used and installed a grid sprinkler systems work great but very costly to install. You might check with http://www.atsirrigation.com/LOCATION.HTM in Brenham for help.
You are also dealing with ARs in your county. So be aware of that ahead of time. Running those numbers will not win you any support for MLD help. Doe harvest will be a fiasco without MLD. Culling as well. You might want to re-think your disdain at TPWD and killing spikes before you jump off into a very costly train wreck.
Buying deer to stock is great but you will have to flood the place with genetics ( at least more than 50% of total current population with introduced deer) to deplete the old stuff out. If you don't then you will revert back to the native genetics by the second or third generation. If you are buying from breeders then you need to research what your buy and who you buy from. I can not stress that last point enough. If you don't you will be throwing fistfulls of money away.
I have to agree with JJH your attitude toward opinions you have gotten is not helping your "consulting business". IMO you should have the answer to your problem at hand without asking on here if that is your business of "consulting".

Do you guys have a problem with reading comprehension?

Mods....please feel free to lock this thread.

Dude, this is about the 3rd or 4th thread you have asked basically the same question about this property, gotten basically the same response, and you still don't like it. You're not likely to have someone who's managed ranches with WT & Axis jump on here and say 'sure, you can run 1 deer per 3 acres, mixed species, and achieve amazing results.' So why keep asking the question here?

Dude, just trying to help. I'm sure Eland Slayer already knew this, just thought it might help.......and I do have something in my noggin, actually.

I have only even referred to our property in one other thread....and that was when we thought 125 acres was all we were going to have (total).

The situation may be changing now (buying more land), hence the completely NEW question about competition (as in PHYSICAL competition) between Axis and Whitetail. I NEVER asked about carrying capacity or anything related to carrying capacity on this thread....so why the hell are people answering a question that was not asked???

But since we are on the subject (seems unavoidable with you guys)....why don't we talk about carrying capacity? I personally have either worked on, hunted on, or otherwise visited ranches with animal densities higher than what I am referring to in my original post (most of which are in areas of less adequate rainfall and habitat than our property).

One of these is owned by a good friend of my family.....it is 7,200 acres in Bandera County. He has the property split into 3 sections. The 1,800 acre pasture where his house sits has approximately 2,000 animals on it representing around 20 species.

A fellow THF poster has 170 acres with nearly 200 animals on it.

Another property owned by a friend of mine is 200 acres in Huntsville, with approximately 50-60 Whitetail (and growing).

I hunted a ranch in Brackettville that was 6,000 acres with nearly 2,000 whitetail and another 1,000-1,500 exotics.

The list goes on....but that's not the point.

Txnrog,

Are you insinuating that one cannot successfully manage a whitetail population with 1 deer per 3 acres? Really?? What do you say to the people who are ALREADY DOING IT?.....David Morris' ranch "El Cazador Ranch" was 2,900 acres with 900 whitetail (one deer per 3 acres).....Hell, someone else on THF just told me yesterday (via PM) that at one time they had at least ONE WHITETAIL DEER PER ACRE in a 100-125 acre pasture!! (all the while, producing great/healthy bucks in the 150"-170" range I might add) Hmmm....how is that possible?? Surely he must be lying since all you fellas seem to know better.

Thing is....I don't NEED advice on carrying capacity from anyone on this forum....and that is why I DID NOT ask for it. I was basically asking if the Axis would fight with the whitetail too much....and somehow this is where we ended up. (Gotta love forums huh?? lol)

Didn't take long for this to become a worthless thread...

Show some pics of what they habitat looks like on those ranches your posting about after last years drought. Just curious as to what they look like.
My guess is if someone is running 125 acres with that many deer and killing that kind of bucks he has to be releasing deer into it also. Would like to see pics of that habitat also. Is it possible? Yes it is but not likely with those kind of numbers.

Now you know how I feel on most of my acquiring knowledge threads!!!

I do not understand the joy in stuffing a property past its carrying capacity with animals, but hell it is your property so do as you wish. I know you do not want to hear my opinion, but it is a free country so I will say it. You will end up with stressed animals, busted up racks, and a huge feed bill. Not to mention that if we go through another drought, you are screwed. I think it will be like shooting fish in a barrel, but once again, it is your ranch not mine. Like mentioned above, I do not understand your rhyme or reason about asking for advice because you just get pissed off every time you do it. I would think it would hurt your business with you coming on here running your mouth, but once again it is a free country, and proceed to ruin your reputation as you wish. To me this is another one of your frivolous posts that ends up with a raise in your blood pressure and a few burnt bridges.

LOL.....I agree. I get a laugh reading these post and surely it has to be tough on a consulting business!!!

1st off, no one is telling you what to do with your property. They are just offering advice based on their experiences. You can choose to accept it or not.

2nd. You've stated clearly that you're not concerned with carrying capacity, only in competition between WT and Axis. The part your overlooking is you can't separate the issues. The more animals you pack in an enclosed area the higher aggression you will get. It's that way across the animal world, deer are no exception.

You've cited several examples of success stories from people attempting similar numbers but for everyone of those positive stories I bet there are 10 times as many failures that we don't hear about because after the fact the person realizes that the idea didn't make much sense to start with.

I honestly hope it works out for you, just as I said when you originally planned to put axis in similar #s on the property. It's your call but if you do what you plan and it fails I wonder if you will post on here saying you were wrong?

Per you own question

" After a few years, the introduction of Axis will result in a total population of around 15-20 Axis bucks on the property with no female Axis. The reason for doing this would be to have some off-season hunting on the property. Do you believe this will negatively affect our Whitetail quality? (whether it is from competition for food, fighting, bedding competition, etc...)"

That is a cc question. You can up the cc by your feeding program..i

If money is no option knock yourself out...if there a cap on money then you axis won't pay for them selves due to stocking rates being to high and natural browse being depleted and you will have to make up for it supplemental feed. Axis are protein hogs

I have to agree with T4PL

The Axis can not pay for themselves if you are buying them at stocker prices and then having to free choice feed them to maturity to harvest. The numbers just won't work with it. Larger animal costing you more money and eating more feed during his life will not be a good return on your investment.

I sold a ranch in January that was 160 acres that had approx. 60 deer on it into the 180 class range.

Deer were nice but the property itself took a beating.

If you want to see a property ragged out from whitetail ill take you to my neighbors.

S.txranchman will vouch for that

Eland: why not just backtop your 300 acres, put in a bunch of PVC trees and brush, and a feeder every 50 acres.

And stop asking for opinions if you don't wan them.