I have read on my 4 favorite Forum (many times) that Lake City cases are thicker therefore have less volume so charges need to be reduced slightly to avoid excessive pressure.

Being retired and with tons of free time on my hands I did a little test today to satisfy my own curiosity.

Here is the data (all cases were SS Media tumbled and Ultrasonic cleaned with new CCI 450 primers). All cases were randomly selected. All cases weight on RCBS digital scales. Also all of these cases have been cycled several times. All cases trimmed to 1.750.

RP
96.0
95.5
94.9
94.1
96.6
AVG=95.48 ES=2.5

FC
96.0
96.4
96.2
96.5
95.9
AVG=96.2 ES=.5

LC-08
95.2
95.3
95.3
95.9
96.1
AVG=95.56 ES=.9

Selected 1 case from each group of the same dry weight (almost) and filled them with water.

LC = 96.1 = 126.4
FC = 96.0 = 126.5
RP = 96.0 = 126.3

Needless to say there is some contradiction in what I've read and what this data shows.

I have heard what your measurements show for the 223/5.56 brass. Now of you check 308 against 7.62 or some old 30-06 brass LC to comercial there I think you will see the difference that is often discussed.

Hey kmon1, thanks for the input, can always count on you for some straight skinny. I did this today trying to figure out why I had those 2 strays at 28.1 with my CFE-223 test.

Thanks for posting this. For my bolt guns, I stock pile one specific head stamp. For my close range ARs, I shoot all mixed head stamp and don't care if my group is an inch instead of .5 inch.

Your Welcome jdk,

thanks - very informative. I just bought a batch of 500 LC brass - not sure if they are mixed or not headstamp wise will have to look.

TopBrass sells them cleaned, deprimed, and trimmed to 1.750 so I figured this was a good way for a new reloader to get started. I don't intend to go anywhere near the max load (yet) but it's nice to learn that there isn't much need to reduce even more due to 223 case thickness on LC brass.

Todd

Hey Todd, you will find that the most accurate load are most often near the max loads. A word of caution, when approaching max loads go in .3g steps and watch your primers very closely for excessive pressure. If you have any questions fell free to PM me. Been doing this for 40 years and love helping those that are just starting out reloading.

Will

Thanks Very much Will -

It's funny - I bought my dillon press here on the forum last week and immediately went to a reloading store in Mesquite that is very highly regarded (online). I just wanted to get some basics and insights and maybe pick up some powder. But when I was there I felt like I was in the Movie "Fight Club" - trying to prove my worthiness to be let into the club. I appreciate your offer to help and will definitely pm you as I begin! (For example - what exactly am I looking for with respect to primers???

Just sent you a PM, did you get it??

+1 for what kmon said. And, you need to measure the neck thickness of the brass. The different neck thicknesses wil cause more/less neck tension on the bullet, and effect the pressure, whoch effects the load and consistancy.

Also, on your SS media. The SS media cleans the case too much. It takes it back to raw brass. On a fired case that has been tumbled in walnut (I use this) or corn cob media, the black carbon remains inside the case and in the neck. This gives the bullet somethintg to "slide" easier into the case neck when seating a bullet. When you seat the bullet on raw, clean brass (like virgin brass on the first loading), the bullet almost sticks to the brass since it's a metal on metal contact. This contact makes it hard to keep your extreme spreads down and have a consistant tension when bullet seating. I know many precision shooters that have gone back to regular media cleaning because of this. If precision is the goal, I'd not recommend the SS media.

This is interesting. I've never thought of that. I was considering getting a SS tumbler to use in addition to my vibratory, but now I might have to reconsider again. Chad, across the board, do the positives outweigh the negatives with SS?

The SS media does get the case nice, shiny and pretty. IMO, I don't care about esthetics, I care about precision and consistancy. The SS won't give you the consistancy in the neck tension and lubriciously. Yes, it will work. But when you can see your ES numbers go up just because of how you cleaned the brass, it makes you reconsider. I prefer to shoot match ammo on once-fired or multiple times fired cases for this reason. I can prep them all the same and have very consistant loads. I fired 21 rounds through my chrono while prepping for my last comp. I had an ES of 13 fps! That's awesome! And these cases have at least 3-4 firings on them.

I rarely polish brass just to polish brass. Clean it when dirty and clean primer pockets but if just a little discolored from handling I do not worry about it. Like Chad pointed out the most consistant loads often come from once or more fired brass that is not mirror bright inside and out.

I have had similar results. With Varget, imr8208xbr, H335 and wc844 the higher charges where the most accurate and had the most consistent chronograph readings.

Chad, thank you so much for your 2 post on my topic. I never considered what you pointed out and it make perfect since.

Good work and interesting find .. Wonder what you will find with the .308 versus 7.62 Nato and the old 30-06??

I have found that 7.62 NATO necked down to .243 Winchester holds three to four grains LESS water than commercial Remington-Pete .243 brass.

Wow, that's a necking down! How thick are the case necks? I know a 308 case necked down to 260 Rem has a hard time chambering. A 243 would be very thick!

I never even tried to chamber one right out of the sizing die, Chad. I turned those case necks. And annealed the necks. And decrimped primer pockets. On 500 cases. Never again!

As an aside, I have been loading and shooting 200 of those cases for the last several years and they are holding up great.

I had a PM discussion with Chad concerning his post about cleaning with SS Media. I feel more comfortable with using SS Media for cleaning (for my purpose in reloading and shooting).

Here is my part of the PM discussion with Chad (Chad if you want to post your part it is ok with me).

"First and foremost I am a hunter. I go to the range to develop the most accurate loads I can with in reason and to keep my shooting skills sharp.

Here is the problem I now have since reading your post.
I have several hundred once fired LC military cases all cleaned with SS Media.

I did a little test, after reading your post.

I took 3 cases cleaned with SS Media
1. seat a bullet and took note of the force it took
2. Coated a bullet with Hoppe's Dri-Lube let it dry then seated the bullet - less force required than #1.
3. Coated a bullet with Hornady One Shot Gun Cleaner & Dry Lube, let it dry and seated the bullet. About the same force required as #2.
4. Took a fired dirty case (resized) and seated a bullet in it. Less force required than #1,2 or 3.

I put all these loads against the side of my bench and pushed as hard as I could and none of them moved."

All case mouth IDs were between .219 & .220

I will go to the range this coming Monday and test the 4 scenarios and post the target & chronograph data on this thread.

Hey Will, that's a great idea. It would probably be a lot more meaningful if you loaded up 5 or 10 of each.

To throw a little fuel in this fire...I have to wonder just how valid the argument against perfectly clean brass really is. I have two reasons:

1. Factory ammo is loaded in perfectly clean brass. It seems to me that in the interest of gaining a competitive edge, the manufacturers would do something to overcome the supposed problem. Maybe they are doing something and we [more properly I ] don't know about it???

2. For loading revolver cartridges in some instances, we are told that using a nice healthy crimp on the bullet helps to promote good, thorough ignition. I have to wonder if this is really true at all, and if so is it also true for rifle cartridges? Or ?????

Experiments are a great way to find some answers. It's just tricky at times and conclusions are not always reliable.

ab

For the first one have no idea, perhaps they are doign some that we do not know about.

Just some random thoughts, might be right or completely off base but...

for the second one, most of the time the recomendation for heavy crimp is in cartridges primaraly used in revolvers where there is a lot of free bore getting out of the cylinder then through the forcing cone. The powders used in a lot of Magnum loads are slow burning and harder to ignite so can see that more resistance from a heavy crimp could be useful. Applied to rifles where there is very little free bore before the bullet enguages in the rifling which also creates resistance the crimp is not as necessary IMO. In most instances highest pressures occur in the first 2 inches of bullet travel as the bullet goes from rest to in motion overcoming crimp, enguaging in rifling and in the case of revolvers going through the forcing cone.

Just some random thoughts, might be right or completely off base but... oh and I tumble brass usually after 3 or 4 loadings if it is brass that I have shot and has not hit the ground or picked up grit, I do wipe it off but that is about it prior to loadign most of the time

Here is what I have prepared for the range test tomorrow. All are loaded with 28g of CFE-223. I'll record Chronograph data for each and post all with the target.

I admittedly overclean. Curious to what moly coated projectiles worth is...Coming out of the case smoothly or sliding down the barrel. Possibly both. Neverless good conversation.

To get the same pressures and velocity using Moly coated bullets you have to increase powder a little. I have done the moly coating before and still have to stuff to coat my own. Biggest problem with Moly is cleaning it out of the barrel.