Lets be honest.....Just how accurate is your gun?

I see alot of talk about people saying thier guns will shoot 1/2" 100 yard groups all the time. All I can say is either I have owned a lot of sub quality guns or some people are telling a little white lie. (Or I guess it could be that I aint a very good shot but I know better than that )

I have owned a ton of guns in my short life (29 years) and so far I can only think of 2 that can truely shoot 1/2" 100 yard groups on a regular basis. However if you read some of the gun talk on the various forums you would swear that every gun that is produced will shoot 1/2" groups, and if it dont then there is something wrong.

What are yalls thoughts? Is there really that many guns out there capable of shooting that kind of groups at that distance or are some people just feeding us a small helping of ?

Just my opinion, but I think there are
one hell of alot more guns that can shoot
1" groups than shooters that can hold a gun
to 1" groups.
Again, that's just me. I've shot alot of targets
but never once have I put a ruler to the holes.
My thinking is I can tell by looking if the gun
is sighted in where it needs to be.

No offense to any sharpshooters that may read this.
PK

Really depends on the gun and the shooter...I have a couple that have no problem shooting 1/2 inch groups. had one I traded years ago, 5 under a dime and 100yd.

Then I've had a couple that the best I could get was 5 shots in a 5-7 inch circle....

To answer your question, my .308 is the bomb

My Savage 111GL in .270 Winchester will shoot three shot groups under an inch with several brands of factory ammo. It seems to like the silver box Winchester Super X 130 grain loads the best, as it shoots them closer to 1/2" when I do my part. All of my other bolt action guns group around 1.25", which is plenty accurate enough for a hunting rifle.

There may well be a lot of sub MOA rifles out there. Roughly speaking, that means a rifle that will do a sub 1" group at 100 yards (or sub 4" group at 400 yards). However, this isn't always measured the same way. Also, whether the firearm is sub-MOA is effected by ammo used when it's tested and the range at which it is teted. Here's a pretty good article:

A lot of stuff about accuracy

It matters a lot more if you are competing than if you are shooting large game, which generally presents a good sized kill zone. I'd say in the hunter's arsenal, the MOA vs. sub-MOA rifle quality is less important than your ability to shoot accurately in field conditions (adrenaline, wind, unbenched firing situation, etc.) Of course, the longer the shot, the more you will enjoy the value of a sub-MOA rifle, but if you can't shoot a 4" group at 400 yards with a 1-MOA rifle, the sub MOA rifle may not help you that much either, depending on what's preventing you from getting the grouping you want.

I have couple of rifles that will do it......but only if I do my part. I would say that most rifles are capable of doing more than most shooters. I get a big kick out of small groups at the range, but MOA (Minute of Animal) is what counts in field conditions.

A lot of people think that the sand bags at the range is all the practice needed. This just isn't so for hunting. In other countries, many believe that we as Americans have a belief that we all shoot well because we are Americans.

The guy that shoots a half box of shells in October and calls it good is not practicing, he is sighting in. This is the same guy that can not believe he missed in adverse hunting conditions.

All of my guns are more accurate than I am, but together we are accurate enough.

MY Tikka will shoot MOA at 100yds as will my 30.06 winchester. But my blackshadow 30-30 is at best 2" at 100yds but all have taken deer out to 175yds...

All of my rifles will shoot under an inch, but this is with clean barel, and my own brew of handloads. Near the end of the season with a dirty barel they dont shoot as good. I also think is that you hear alot of people talk about shooting a 1/2 inch group all the time when in reality it only happend once. I agree, going to the rifle range I always look at the other targets down there, and wander to myself how those people actualy kill deer. The last time I was at the range was to sight my varmit bullets in in my 270, 90 gr tnt hp's, I left that day surprised, the point of impact didnt change from my deer hunting bullets and I had a six shot one raged hole group dead center in the middle of the bull. Just to clarify I am not saying that happens every time, but it was cool to act like it did.

matt

All of my rifles are sub-MOA. I guess I'm just a perfectionist.

I think most guns are capable of sub-MOA groups at 100 yards from a bench. Some just need a little help like trigger let-off, removing any slack from the pull, clean and cool barrels, etc. It also helps to shoot in the best conditions possible if you are trying to achieve good results. Even a slight crosswind can give a benchrest shooter hell.

BUT the reality is, a gun is only as good as the shooter
If the shooter is patient and has made necessary adjustments to the rifle, sub-MOA groups are possible with almost any brand/caliber rifle. IMO

It all boils down to what each individual shooter wants and needs for his/her rifle to be "on". Some folks are content with 2" groups. That's certainly more than accurate enough to cleanly take game.

MOA rifles are one thing but 1/2 MOA is a whole nother ball game!

Over the years I have either owned or shot at least 125 differnt rifles, and of those I would say that I was able to get about 35% of those to shoot MOA at 100 yards. Some of these rifles were used guns, some were brand new guns, some were very inespensive guns, and some were very expensive guns. If you have a MOA rifle or sub-MOA rifle then it is something you should be proud of because regardless of what people will tell you, they aint that common.

On the other hand, if you have a true 1/2 MOA rifle then I would say that you own a gun that represents less than 2% of all rifles built. 1/2 MOA rifles dont grow on trees, and if you have one then you better not sell it because you likely will not find another for quite a while.

I have been to the range and looked at other peoples targets while waiting on a cease fire and it is rare that I ever come across a target that is truely MOA or sub-MOA. I have gone to the range with friends and family that brag about how thier rifle or rifles will shoot 1" groups or less, but every time the shooting begins the groups usually grow to about 1.25"-1.5"+. When this happens the next thing I hear is a bunch of excuses.

1/2 MOA rifles are rare, actually they are EXTREMLY RARE! If you have one charish it! Regardless of what you read, not everybody owns one!

If MOA or sub-MOA guns are so prominent in the production gun arena then why in the world would someone spend $2000-$3000 for a custom gun? I have thinned my collection of rifles down to 6 and only 1 has shot MOA and that only once, haven't tried to group it again. All are capable of making 250+ yard killing shots but I still have to do my part.

My browning in .30-06 will shoot sub moa with good ammo if I take the time to adjust the boss. With the winchester silver tips I can shoot 3 rounds from a bench touching each other at a 100 yards, but with the old silver tips the best I can get is just over a inch at a 100 yards. I am about to switch to the hornady sst light mag, and I am hoping that they will group as well as the ballistic silver tips. My old remington 7400 on a good day will keep them under 2" at a 100 yards.

All mine to include my cheap little Rossi 243 with cheaper glass is MOD.

I only have two out of a bunch (12 guns). I have a remington 243 that will shot 1/2 groups with PMC 85 grain serria game king bullets, but since I can't find anymore PMC ammo, I switched to the Fed. Barnes TSX and it shots about an 1.5 with them.

Also my 25-06 encore will a shot 1/2 groups. 26" Custom Barrel from eabco, but it took me a lot of rounds to get use to the lock time. I use custom loaded 25-06 ammo also.

Even if I had a larger cabiler gun that was moa or sub moa in anything 270 and over I really have to concentrate and probely still not be able to shot moa or sub, I tend to always flinch a little on the second and third shot, maybe why I'm such a 25 bore fan

It's just that I have done the target rifle deal, a lot. I understand why people want to shoot those groups. I guess, it's like playing golf....talk to people, they are 7-9 handicaps, normally shoot 79-81, get them on the course, and dang, wouldn't you know it, its the worst day ever, a stinking 94 with 3 mulligans and improving their lie all day.

Sig, I understand exactly what you are saying, but I think we also forget the technology factor. Who ever thought we would ever have a compound bow that would shot 345 ft/s, or an AR/15( or any semi auto rifle) that would shot well below MOA, or a slug gun that would group 2-3 inches at 200+ yards or a muzzle loader.. ect.

I know I have two rifles very capable of 1/2 moa, but am I 1/2 moa, and is the enviorment I'm shooting in 1/2 moa, revoling question with an alternating anwsers depending on to many factors. i think there are alot more guns out there capable of 1/2 MOA then what we think. But there are very few very consitant 1/2 MOA shooter out there, but I think in general there are a lot of people very capable of MOA with the right equipment and envioments.

Funny post in alot of ways I remeber growing up and going to diffenent shoots with my Dad, I either do really good or really bad. Either way Dad would tell me enjoy it for what it is.... if you have to put the bullet into a inch circle on a deer in the field because thats the only shot you have, you better wait for a better shot presentation.

Since there is no standard for bragging on rifle accuracy, everyone can have a sub-MOA gun.

Some folks may shoot a couple boxes of shells and manage to flinch a couple three shot groups together. They meaure their best group (disregarding the other poor groups) and call that accuracy. Personally, I find this to be a statistical anomaly.

Some folks may work through a dozen different loads, and decide on their best load. Then shoot five consecutive five shot groups. Averaging this, and establishing a benchmark for what their gun is capable of. From then on, they can compare new load against this.

If one or too or even five 3-shot groups in a range session (arbitrarily deleting flyers, and poor groups) makes a sub-MOA gun, then pretty much any new rifle out of the box can be a sub-MOA gun.

Here some of my targets.

Sako .222Remington
This target is a 5 round group, the best group I've ever shot with a factory rifle, ever.


8 Rounds, the flyer is the fouler shot.



7mm-08



25-06



These are just a few that I scanned right quick. I have a pile of them.

And here are the rifles that shot these targets. Top down Sako 222rem, Ruger-77 25-06, Rem VLS 7mm-08 w/brake.


Jay

I am a firm believer of the old "Minute Of Critter" accuracy theory, and hain't seen me no critter yet that is gonna stand there long enough, one way or another, to let ANY shooter see how many bullets they can put in that one spot.

As another little tid bit, and I know that this does not apply to EVERYONE, but from my own limited experience, many "bench rest - one whole - wizards" are some of the most "Piss Poor" game shots under normal hunting conditions.

That includes folks that hjave shown up in camp with a 3 ring binder full of all their best groups shot and the ballistics of the cartridges they are using taped to the stock of their rifle.

I have nothing against anyone wanting to get the most or best they can out of their equipment, but when they are looking at hair I want them to make the critter dead, preferably on the FIRST shot and preferably where it was standing at the shot, Silly Me.

Once upon a time a true MOA off the rack deer rifle was a rarity to myth but as ammo & guns became better built the quest for a MOA shooter has become more and more common. As several have mentioned most new guns today are better shooters than the nut behind the trigger.
20-30 years ago I had the opportunity to really practice at a 100 yard bench with several thousands rounds a year and was professionally expected to shoot accurately for a number of years, and became quite proficient at winning "ringer" bets to pay for beer money in the '70's & early '80's. PTL that was before my blood pressure fell victim to old age + too much steak and scotch, but like riding a bycycle or typing, accuracy with good equipment is a repeatable learned response, given a foundation of enough practice, which why I preach Practice & Reloading as an avenue to burn 100's of rounds a year for everyone ad naseum. I hunted in Finland in 1984 and had to shoot to qualify for a Hunting License on a moving target. I'd bet less than ONE PERCENT of the "hunters" I've ever known who could pass that test, and I passed only with some serious coaching and after more than the standard number of "trys" allowed. SO IMO, todays deer hunter spends so little time "KNOWING" his rifle on an intimate basis I doubt seriously if all the claimed MOA shooters are any where close to true...but there are those serious shooters out there that can and have regularly shamed me with their proficiency.

NOW IMO 5 shot 1/2" groups or less are a whole nuther world altogther than a steady repeatable 5 shot 1" group is. Even with the experiences and trigger time I've logged only a very few of the sporter class factory guns I've handled were capable of 1/2" groups on a repeatable basis, and only on rare occasions. Having said that, I am more than pleasantly surprised and pleased with the performance of the Tikka T3's with regards to accuracy...but they are drop dead fugly looking IMO, but I own hammers, saws & wheelbarrows that also don't trip my "GAWD that's purty one/ gotta have it" trigger either. IMO deer rifles are TOOLS used to collect venison, anything beyond that is a bonus. Beauty and collectability is in the eyes of the beholder. JMHO
Ron

I have about 3 rifles that are repeatably under MOA groups. The best group I've ever measured was .638 center to center with a model 700 .308 that has some custom work on it. To be honest, though, about 80% of my kills on game were with rifles that are more likely 1.5 to 2 MOA. I'm a firm believer that shooting and hunting are different sports, related, but different. My time at the range makes me a better shot in the field, but I know that in the field, I can't always expect to have a solid bench, and shooting in even slightly adverse conditions with a 10+ lb rifle can get pretty tough. Lugging one of those things around in the field gets pretty exhausting, and even getting a 26" barrel out a blind can be tricky sometimes. Yes, I can kill deer out to 300 yards, but I'm just as quick to pick up a Savage 99 with open sights as I am the 6-18x leupold on top of a .25-06 sendero if I'm going out after a whitetail or pig.

This is interesting, i've shot in bench-rest matches where if you wasn't shooting sub 1/4 inch groups at 200 yards, you wasn't even in the top 10. The best 5 shot group i ever seen was shot by a gentelmen from Taos NM. .163 center to center. I've heard there was group shot in OK that measured .097, but it wasn't a sanctioned event.