Forums46
Topics538,595
Posts9,738,999
Members87,095
|
Most Online25,604 Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: J.G.]
#3009739
02/13/12 06:14 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,544
thedoveshooter
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,544 |
So, if I buy new powder I use new data; if I use old powder I use old data?
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: thedoveshooter]
#3009821
02/13/12 11:44 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528 |
I am not sure which powders have changed and which have not, I don't use more than about twenty out of all the variety available. The powder manufacturers all offer free data so it shouldn't be too hard to look at your old data and compare it to the latest data to make a determination.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: RiverRider]
#3023273
02/17/12 08:51 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,026
bluetopper
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,026 |
If powders changed (burn rates?) very much, if any, they couldn't keep calling them the same names. And it's ironic that the changes in load data have all decreased. I think most of the reason is they have become a lot more lawyer leary.
Uprisings started or quelled, tornadoes rerouted, elections rigged.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: J.G.]
#3029642
02/20/12 01:29 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,085
Don Dial
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,085 |
Buddy, if you think powders don't change then you need to age some more yourself...Every day there are changes and that's why all manuals reccommend getting new additions regularly..I've got some that are over 40 yrs old and they are much different that the ones I use now..and I check my loads on a chrono and watch the pressure...and I'm not afraide to load'm hot..I still shoot mostly magnums, except for my 308 and 2-250...which is hot anyway....Sounds like you just do not wish to spend the bucks for a new manual..Dirt
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: Don Dial]
#3029841
02/20/12 02:42 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528 |
Lawyer leary? That's a pretty safe bet. Powders don't change? That's a BAD bet and I'd hate to have to pay up and odds are 100 to 1 you'd lose.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: bluetopper]
#3031113
02/20/12 11:08 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,641
Fatalwishes' Wife
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,641 |
If powders changed (burn rates?) very much, if any, they couldn't keep calling them the same names. And it's ironic that the changes in load data have all decreased. I think most of the reason is they have become a lot more lawyer leary. Ok I'm comparing my Speer #11 and #13. On a .38 special +P 140 grn bullet, it says to use in the #11 book, a max of 5.9 grns of Unique. That's a hot load. In the Speer #13 it is 5.3 grns. That is .6 grns on a really fast burning powder. That's a big difference. On a .308 165 grn #11 book says to use 53 grns of 760 for 2631 fps and the new books says to use 51 grns of 760 for 2679 FPS. 2 grns less and more velocity. On a 168 grn match Bullet the numbers are 53 grns of 760 for the old and 49 for the new. That is 4 grns difference. That is one caliber and 1 bullet and 1 powder. They are all different. Some more than others. The point is, if you buy new powder get the new book or get the latest data online from the powder manufacture and use that. Or don't. Just don't shoot around other people if you don't.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: Fatalwishes' Wife]
#3031233
02/20/12 11:47 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,202
timbertoes
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,202 |
books are 5 years or more apart in printing. probably takes up to a year just to publish the latest.
powder is made and shipped daily.
Last edited by timbertoes; 02/20/12 11:48 PM.
Forum says "Veteran Tracker". I could not track a garbage truck into a fireworks factory.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: timbertoes]
#3035668
02/22/12 04:14 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,026
bluetopper
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,026 |
Yes there are lot to lot variations in powder. And every time data is tested by whatever company is doing so, different equipment is used, different test barrels, different methods, different projectiles, different temperature, atmospheric conditions and so on so data will be different. Published load data is not meant to be a Bible, but to be a guide. If major changes in powder or the burn rates of said powder changed they wouldn't and couldn't keep calling them the same name as years before. Powder companies are not hesitant about introducing new and improved powders once they are developed and the ole standby powders of years past are "pretty much" as before.
Last edited by parisite; 02/22/12 04:30 AM.
Uprisings started or quelled, tornadoes rerouted, elections rigged.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: bluetopper]
#3035993
02/22/12 11:43 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528 |
Well then, use the old data...knock yerself out. I just want to know where you shoot so I can arrange to not be there while you're at it.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: Don Dial]
#3037707
02/22/12 11:14 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,787
scattergun
OP
Extreme Tracker
|
OP
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,787 |
Buddy, if you think powders don't change then you need to age some more yourself...Every day there are changes and that's why all manuals reccommend getting new additions regularly..I've got some that are over 40 yrs old and they are much different that the ones I use now..and I check my loads on a chrono and watch the pressure...and I'm not afraide to load'm hot..I still shoot mostly magnums, except for my 308 and 2-250...which is hot anyway....Sounds like you just do not wish to spend the bucks for a new manual..Dirt First of all I ain't your buddy. Never met you. Got chrono, know pressure signs, got the new book. In looking at the new manual I noticed that I have been loading a good bit over max according to them (new manual) with never a problem or pressure sign. What if the new guy buys an old manual at a garage sale and has at it?
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: J.G.]
#3046433
02/26/12 08:24 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 889
mikeYZ250
Tracker
|
Tracker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 889 |
It all depends on the rifle, one bore maybe tighter than the other, one chamber maybe a bit loose. Everything comes into play, the specific bullet you are using not just weight of the bullet.
You can't handle the truth!
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: scattergun]
#3046481
02/26/12 08:49 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,586
deewayne2003
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,586 |
I have Version II and a Version V of the reloading manual. (Yes I've been loading a long time) Manual II shows a TWO grain difference in the max load on the caliber I was looking up with the II being higher. Called them today and they said the component (powder) had changed that much between the two manuals. The powder has been made for 70 years and I think the only thing that has changed is the litigation. They assured me that had nothing to do with the change. I'm calling on that. I'm going by the older manual and using the usual precaution on pressure signs. Your thoughts........ Yeah I think thats a bad idea and I would go with the people who put out the informations advice. I recently read and article where a gun writter had a friend show up with a new .270 and they loaded rounds with his "good old best load" of 4350 from 1965; the first shot had such high pressure they had to tap the casing out with a rod and hammer. his words exactly "I dont know why we just went with it and didnt check the current load data!" I cant remember the exact number but it came out to be a 40ish percent over load.....basically a proofing round
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: deewayne2003]
#3049092
02/27/12 08:46 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 549
Scalpel4
Tracker
|
Tracker
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 549 |
Novice question here, don't slap me down. Has the quality of brass in the casing changed over the years? Could another variable be just the strength/thickness of the brass now as compared to years back? I know for example engine blocks aren't as strong now as they used to be because some engine builders use cheap recycled steel instead of fresh iron. Could this be the case for the brass?
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: Scalpel4]
#3049748
02/28/12 01:10 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,026
bluetopper
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,026 |
Quality of the brass would have nothing to do with the amount of pressure exerted in the chamber. There are thick and thin brands of the same caliber brass however. Thicker brass would have slightly higher pressures due to less space in the cartridge.
Last edited by parisite; 02/28/12 01:11 AM.
Uprisings started or quelled, tornadoes rerouted, elections rigged.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: bluetopper]
#3051785
02/28/12 10:05 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,641
DStroud
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,641 |
The metallurgy of the brass can have an effect on at what pressure it fails. I witnessed a bad batch of FACTORY ammo from Hornady fail and blow out an extractor. I told my buddy to send it back which he did and to hornady's credit they sent new(more than he sent them) and offered to repair any damage but what surprised me was they told him that it was a bad batch of too soft brass once they got it back and checked it. All this talk of old data vs new data always reminds me of Jack O'Connor. If you have read all his stuff I think I know what he would call all you guys who feel like if you deviate even slightly from what the manual( GOSPEL) tells you then you will certainly be blown into a small pieces along with everyone for 3 city blocks. I wouldn't call you that but he would!
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: DStroud]
#3051996
02/28/12 11:22 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528 |
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: RiverRider]
#3052889
02/29/12 04:33 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,148
Humble pie
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,148 |
The sky is falling. Most barrel failures do not come from shooting a rifle caliber 2 grains over max load.
Never had a dog fail me yet.
End dog fighting.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: Humble pie]
#3053221
02/29/12 11:48 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,528 |
This may be true...for bolt-action rifles, at least. Nonetheless, if you're not going to heed the recommended maximum charges you are flirting with disaster and you are probably doing it for very little in return. The velocity increases you get are not proportional to the increases in pressure so it's a game of diminishing returns. Without having very specific and well based reasons for exceeding the recommended maximums it should NOT be done.
Really...I think arguing anymore about this is pointless. The subject is what I think I will in the future refer to as a Darwinian pivot point.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: RiverRider]
#3054464
02/29/12 10:11 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,148
Humble pie
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,148 |
This may be true...for bolt-action rifles, at least. Nonetheless, if you're not going to heed the recommended maximum charges you are flirting with disaster and you are probably doing it for very little in return. The velocity increases you get are not proportional to the increases in pressure so it's a game of diminishing returns. Without having very specific and well based reasons for exceeding the recommended maximums it should NOT be done.
Really...I think arguing anymore about this is pointless. The subject is what I think I will in the future refer to as a Darwinian pivot point. Yep.
Last edited by Stangfish; 02/29/12 10:12 PM.
Never had a dog fail me yet.
End dog fighting.
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: Humble pie]
#3056617
03/01/12 07:23 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,641
DStroud
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,641 |
I would not recommend anyone load over the recommended maximum either...... the problem is which recommended maximum will you heed. If 6 manuals give you say from 40gr to 45gr as a maximum if you load 41gr you ARE over maximum.
Is the discussion pointless.... Well it can be but with folks like yourself's that have a rational debate it will be helpful to newbies I am hopeful. They need to realize that what is in every manual is a guide not the gospel.
Last edited by DStroud; 03/01/12 11:50 PM.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
|
|
|
Re: Sierra, I'm calling BS
[Re: DStroud]
#3065453
03/05/12 06:59 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,034
John2
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 14,034 |
It may have been stated but maybe the steel in out firearms isn't as good as it used to be ?.Just food for thought.
Not all those that wander are lost..
Back The Men in Blue that wears a badge
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|