Such as?

Boy do I agree with this-especially the 'tactical' thing getting out of hand part. Hey,don't get me wrong this is America and the tactical craze is fine with me.They are cetainly a blast to shoot for sure.I just have to roll my eyes though when I see all the hype touting them 1)for their accuracy and 2)as a great hunting platform.

The AR platform is designed for battle,not accuracy. The true military models are intentionally built to loose tolerances to withstand battlefield conditions. Yes I get those tolerances are tightened in civilian models and they can be made accurate but that kinda misses the point and turns everything on its head. The bolt action platform is the platform when accuracy is the goal.

Same for most types of hunting. See accuracy comments above. PLUS the AR platform is clunky,unbalanced, and just plain unwieldy for hunting. Add in that the jutting magazine is a major pain when trying to quickly stabilize the rifle on any kind of rest. Add in also the required high scope mounting prevents good cheek weld thus hindering accuracy.

They are considered great hog guns and I understand that since their ability to get a lotta lead out there quickly is paramount if you are a big-time hog slayer. And when the Zombies attack I'm sure I'll be wishing for an AR/tactical gun. Till then I'll stick with my bolt rifles.

^^^^^^^

1. I would be VERY VERY interested to see actual documentation of "tolerences" being tightened in civilian AR15's in comparison to the M16/M4. I would guess you have no such material and are simply regurgitating what you heard in a gunshop..

2. Next i would ask what you consider "not accurate".

Yep I have to admit I'm not an expert and going on my reading. Have read alot of stuff where AR platforms are being customized to reduce tolerances much like Les Baer does with 1911s,for example (I have even read he is doing the same with ARs now but again no personal experience.)

Don't know how to add to the accuracy statements I made-I get they can be made to be accurate. Again,kind of a given the bolt platform is the preferred starting platform for accuracy as a result of its bolt lockup.

I'm really not dissing tactical rifles-but saying they are the best at everything and can 'do it all' better than any other platform is getting a little carried away IMO. Each good gun design has its own strengths and weaknesses-there is no 'do it all' gun despite the current rabid following tactical rifles have acquired.

There is a reason you don't see ARs in horses' scabbards and strapped to backpacks on once in a lifetime big-game hunts out west and all over the world. (Though I admit fully expect to start seeing a few soon given all the "gunshop" and internet talk about how great they are as accurate hunting rifles.)

What is the point, what dumbass decided to build this? Seriously it is so impratical I am really curious to know the idea behind designing it.

What is the point, what dumbass decided to build this? Seriously it is so impratical I am really curious to know the idea behind designing it.

My first question to is, are you LE?

I'm not going into techniques or tactics but will keep my answer simple and obvious.

First, a lever patrol rifle will cost a fraction of the cost of an AR. When shrinking budgets are at hand and cutbacks necessary this must come into consideration.

They are accurate, light and easily deployed from a patrol car and used in tight spaces, by a wide variety of officers. ]

They're available in a wide variety of calibers with inexpensive, readily available ammo.

They're easy to use, dependable and easy to train officers in their use.

In rural areas they can offer more adequate firepower on medium to large domestic and wild animals. In my career I've had to kill horses, cows, deer (including exotics)and emus. We have one officer that had to kill a rampaging buffalo (bison). It took one 30 round mag from an AR and a few more from a second mag.

In norther regions where bear, moose, elk and other larger game could be encountered I'd rather have a big bore lever gun over an AR.

Gotta be the silliest thing I've ever seen, kinda like the Judge, just another novelty item.

First, no. I'm not an LEO. I agree with you that sticking an M4 buttstock on everything looks rediculous. The levergun above looks like the immpure cross between levergun and a UTG convention. I think it is silly, but I'm not going to knock someone for buying something they want to buy.

Ok, I can see how having a 45-70 over a 5.56 is useful on a bison. (actually kind of funny when you think about it. : ) ) But that example is kind isn't really the use of the average patrol rifle.

AR's are light, handy, and dependable. A great gun can be bought for less than a thousand dollars by a civillian. LEO discounts can drop that significantly. A pretty good one can be bought for $600 (not one I'd risk my life with, but good enough).

Frankly, there are lots of reasons that patrol rifles and shotguns are being replaced by AR's.

I agree that the Mossberg tactical rifle is ugly as homemade soap.

As for some of your other observations all I can say is that you miss the point. Probably because you are not a LEO and have no basis for comparison.

The AR is probably the best platform for patrol rifles. No question about it. However, they are expensive, even for with LEO/LEA discount. I can buy a Bushmaster for about $700. An agency can buy them a little cheaper.

When agencies are faced with budget shortfalls and can't afford to outfit every car much less every officer with one, a much cheaper lever gun would be a solid choice and far better than no patrol gun. I'll reference the LA Bank Robbery as an example. Those responding officer had nothing but their sidearms. A rifle...any rifle would have been preferable.

An agency can buy 2 lever guns to one AR. In some cases that's much better than no rifle. Some smaller agencies don't pay well and an individual officer simply may not be able to afford the AR, even with the discount. Again, any rifle is better than no rifle.

As for use of the patrol rifle, I've used my patrol rifle more often on wild and domestic animals than I have people. Something to consider.

The last time I deployed my patrol rifle was in Nov. 2011 for this.


Coyote wouldn't leave a little league baseball complex and there were games scheduled to begin in an hour.

1. Care to share those articles?
2. Why dont you contact Mr. Mark Larue and ask how his AR platform rifles have performed at the International Sniper Competition.
3. I've seen plenty people post pics and stories using those "evil black guns" on hunts "out west" Including Elk, and Bison.

Did I say they could not be made accurate? No. Larue is a good example that they can-with enough time and $$$ invested.
Did I call them "evil black guns"? No. I said I have no problem with them and they are fun to shoot.
What I said was they cannot do it all. And they can't.
But when someone can't or won't engage in a civil discussion ,again, they have to put words in someone else's mouth so they can argue with themselves I guess.