Concerning labs specifically. This post is not meant to offend anyone. My lab is getting older, 12 year old, and is only a part time hunter now. I will be looking for a puppy in the near future, thus my conflict. I don't participate in hunt test or field trials, nor do I show in conformation....simply dove and waterfowl. I like a lab that displays the "show type" but has prey drive. It seems to me that a lab that is "show type" but is also biddible in the field is becoming increasingly difficult to find. Has there been such a separation between show and field lines that the two have become too task orientated? Am I asking for too much? Thoughts please.

play maker, pm sent your way

I noticed several years ago that the consistent Trial and hunt test winners were what I call " keen headed ". And the Block headed Labs are a bit slower and more laid back as a whole.

I had a Lean Mac grandson that was also out of some River Oaks blood and he was keen headed, sharp as a tack and pretty high strung.

The 2-3 block heads I have had were great dogs but, they didnt have the 110% throttle that Strider had.

I have always figured the head thing was the breeding and line breeding to get where the trialers wanted to be and the keen head is one of the characteristics that went with it.

Many of my clients prefer a dog with more classic looks. They're around you just have to look a little harder. I have one stud that's a CH/MH and is a great hunting/house dog. That's where I would start. Look for breeders that use a mix of show and field lines.

Angie

Angie, by Classic are you referring to the blockier head type? Your Rio dog on your website is a sure enough looker, and what I call the blocky head.

Yes,,, A thicker dog as opposed to more angular. More coat, bone and an otter tail.

Angie

That is my favorite type, but I have found the keener smaller dogs do do better in the hot Texas dove fields as a whole.

But what the heck, I like em all.

Yes, there is a considerable difference in the conformation, head and temperament between field trial bred, show bred, British/Irish and what I call the 'traditional' Lab (something in between show & field trial.) This 'traditional' is what lots of folks think of when they think of the 'family dog.' Both in terms of build and temperament. The dog that's larger & heavier than the field trial Lab, but more muscular and athletic than the show Lab. Less 'intense' or 'high strung' than the field trial Lab but more driven and energetic than the show Lab.

At our kennels, we call these our 'American Hunting Bloodlines.' They come from bloodlines that have been hunting for generations, but haven't been bred to push drive/energy to an extreme, so that they still make great family/house dogs. Also, they are bigger, not designed for heavy/speedy competitions, but make great 'meat dogs' for the average hunter looking for a good buddy that is sturdy, hardy & can physically and emotionally handle everything from the rigors of waterfowling to kids climbing on top of them. Because of the wide difference in Labs between what we call 'traditional', show, field trial and British/Irish, we differentiate at our kennels, to make it easier for folks to identify the kind of dog they want and breedings/litters they would be interested in. I see totally different markets/customers that request the different bloodlines, too. Below are examples of each:
NOTE: My comments are not meant to be 'rules' or 'blanket statements' about ALL dogs from each line, but to accentuate the key differences.

Our 'traditional' Labs (70-110 lbs, 21-24" tall, blocky heads, muscular, thick bone, calm demeanor with good drive):

I personally think of these as the 'quintessential Lab' - burn it up in the field, then curl up hearthside with the family. Most folks who buy from these bloodlines want that 'perfect mix' of family dog and hunting buddy. They hunt as a recreational pursuit and don't want/need an 'extreme' dog - the dog will be part of the family, live inside, and must be a good citizen.

Our 'field trial' lines (40-60 lbs, 20-23" tall, narrow & sloped head, muscular, small boned, high-strung, LOTS of drive):

I don't generally recommend these for the all-around family pet & hunter, they are less amenable than the dog above for being in the house and around children. However, they are great for the purpose for which they were bred - to be 'extreme', driven, competitive & fast. Most folks tend to want to keep that sort of energy outdoors. Most folks who request these are guides, single, will keep the dog kenneled and want an 'all business' dog to hunt over. They are likely to run field trials or hunt tests in the off season (from hunting, that is.)

Our 'British/Irish' bloodlines (40-60 lbs, 19-23" tall, small boned, heads & conformation vary from well muscled with large barrel to very petite, lithe and wirey:



British dogs make great all-around dogs for someone who wants a family hunter (good pet, good hunting buddy), without the size of our 'traditional' lines. At the same time, these dogs are great competitors, too - high drive, but it's focused. The Brits are very tractable & trainable but tend to be extremely high strung as puppies. Once they have a 'job' and reach about 2 years of age, they tend to really settle in and channel all that energy into useful purpose.

We don't deal with show dogs, so I don't have any to post from our kennels. My personal experience has been that (again, broad statement, there are always exceptions) these dogs lack the drive to make good hunting dogs. No need to create an uphill battle, so we just appreciate their handsome appearance, but realize they would not make an appropriate contribution to our program or the goals of our kennel.

Again, these statements are meant to be broad, to accentuate key differences to contribute honestly to this discussion. But in the house with me at this moment, I have one Brit (having his morning tea and crumpets), three 'traditional' and two field trial dogs laying at my feet. I like diversity! ;-)

I have had I think 5 of the first type and one of the 2nd. Loved em all, but the trial bred dog could be a hand full at times. Nothing really major, but we had to keep an eye on him all the time.

He was the best dog I have ever seen at marking birds or bumpers. He'd mark doves while in the box in the truck and find em when the dog on the ground couldnt.

And one time fooling around in the yard I told my son he could retrieve quadraquintuples ( you figure it out ), which was all the bumpers I had, 8 or 9 I think. I set him on a bench because we were going to a Federal WMA and that is what he'd be on in the blind, threw all the bumpers and then sent him for them 1 at a time.

After Strider made short work of it at 50 to 70 yards in thick grass and brush, Zach just walked away shaking his head.

Have any of ya'll ever imported a lab from Great Britain or know of someone who has recently? I am curious as to the cost of doing such. Additionally, has there been a split between the field and show lines oversees as well?

I know someone who imports semen and can get you a British Lab born here in the US. If you are interested, PM me. He deals in some excellent British & Irish bloodlines. He's got some champion AI's in the hopper for dogs that are no longer alive, limited straws and he had to jump thru hoops to get the genetics. You won't be able to get a female from that breeding, though.

PM sent.

I am not certain regarding the split of lines in the UK, but I have read there is a material difference in American & Brittish field trial lines. The basic thrust of the reading was the difference was due to the differences in how the field trials were conducted. The British trials tend to emphasize a more real hunting environment that emphasizes true hunting traits, especially the nose and calm tempermant; the American trials tend to lean more to the 'extreme' of retrieving requiring much higher drive & stamina. Keep in mind that I am not a breeder or heavy into trials, I am only relaying information that I read in article when I was researching labs.

Y'know, I keep seeing these posts from newbies who appear once, ask for specifics on breeders, specifically in Texas, never to be heard from again. Y'know what, y'all? If I didn't know better, I'd say somebody is hunting down kennels.... given the approach, I'd say for less than admirable purposes. Check out all the recent posts similar to this one, targeting different sporting breeds and then check the profile of the OP's, when they joined and what they posted:

fireman - 1/5/11
hutingtheworld - 1/9/11
parisite - 7/10/11
PlayMaker - 2/1/11
RMFWTX - 10/22/11
miniduckslayer (migratory bird sec) - 1/1/12
...and one more who got neck deep in it on the gundog section (y'all know who I mean)

That's what I found in a QUICK scan. Considering recent legislation, the power mongering mentality of liberals and their typically underhanded ways of achieving their selfish, controlling and immoral ways, I really question the motivations of these posters. Mods, I know my daughter can check IP's - wonder if it's the same person or several? Anyone else belong to other boards where sport dog kennels post? Please be on the lookout and watch for this.

All in all, despite our differences, we who run sport dog kennels are all good people who realize that you have to run an above board business and take great care of your dogs if you expect to stay in business. Of any type of kennel, we typically own & deploy FAR more resources (food, land, exercise, attention, medical care, physical conditioning, etc.) than the average, let alone legal minimums, due to the nature of the animals we deal with. But those out for a witch hunt typically will create a 'scandal' where none exists, just to forward their misguided cause.

Call me paranoid, but I saw the kind of posturing, underhandedness & filth surrounding the so called "puppy mill" bill which recently passed. Just an observation from someone whose had enough trips around the sun (and spent enough time in the mire in WDC) to not notice the trend. Keep your eyes open.

You better watch articles. Many are very subjective with a personal uniformed opinion behind them. So many take them as factual when they're just opinions.

I've run into some nice english bred labs that look more like the dogs of the 70's. The one complaint I've heard about them is their soft temperament. Not all have it but it can be an issue even with those that train the "english" way.

Like anything else you have to know your pedigree's, what you're looking at and know what your buying.

A few gundog articles aren't going to help you much with that I'm afraid.

Angie

I have owned both and the temperments and size seem to match up to what Ironspikes described.

My male is 11 and unfortunatley this is his last year to hunt. He was 75-80 lbs in his prime tall and lean. He has always had a great on/off switch between field and home. He loved the game but could not mark as good as I would have liked when I ran him in hunt tests.

I recently bought a female from a trainer friend of mine that was bread hot. She is 8 months smaller framed extreamly trainable will probably weigh between 55-60 lbs but her off switch has not started working. We keep her in a kennel outside and bring her in but after about 30 minutes my wife, male dog metntioned above, and I have had enough.

Both dogs had hunting test and field trials in their pedigree but the male's spotty.

There is a difference between the "English" (show) dog and the "British" or "Irish" gun dog. Both in conformation and in temperament and drive. I believe ThreeShot is speaking of the British, not English.

We ALL need to watch EVERY article we read because all articles are written by human beings and all human beings have opinions and perspectives that we can't help but infuse into our work. The best way to grow informationally is to read many things, a wide variety of things, even of topics and perspectives we don't necessarily subscribe to. Then form our own ideas and opinions based on a broad foundation of knowledge and information.