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If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? #2888335 01/02/12 01:20 AM
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If MLD program is the optimal management tool, then why isn't the entire state of Texas on the program? The state has surveys that include your land or that is close to your land and the MLD program extends the season and eliminates animals and gets the herd closer to the optimal carrying capacity, so why doesn't the state just require all landowners to participate?



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: BenBob] #2888356 01/02/12 01:26 AM
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I think you will see some changes in the way the MLD program works over the next few years. The state has gotten lax in their guidelines to qualify for it.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: stxranchman] #2888368 01/02/12 01:29 AM
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Aren't they pretty lax in enforcing how you participate while you are using it?



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: BenBob] #2888381 01/02/12 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: BenBob
Aren't they pretty lax in enforcing how you participate while you are using it?


i've had game wardens stop by at camp and request to see all our MLD harvest data. they took there time looking thru it, didn't just skim over it.


I think that the average landowner just dosen't want to mess with the requirements of maintaining a MLD level 3



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: txtrophy85] #2888397 01/02/12 01:36 AM
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did they try to give tickets on <13" deer in the books grin


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: BenBob] #2888402 01/02/12 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: BenBob
If MLD program is the optimal management tool, then why isn't the entire state of Texas on the program? The state has surveys that include your land or that is close to your land and the MLD program extends the season and eliminates animals and gets the herd closer to the optimal carrying capacity, so why doesn't the state just require all landowners to participate?


BenBob, I don't think it will ever go to a requirement catagory! Why not? Because some land owners choose not to participate. There are many methods of management tools and personally if the state required it then how is different than Obamacare being forced down our throats. I'm not saying it's a bad plan because we are contemplating it now on our place but requiring it would be a violation of my rights.....IMHO.




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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Cool_Hand] #2888452 01/02/12 01:49 AM
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Maybe I just worded it wrong. Just set the seasons up to where they are the same as MLD season and have them advise how many deer to take off per acre. Then it would not be forced on you, it would just be the way it was.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: BenBob] #2888462 01/02/12 01:53 AM
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They couldn't hire enough people to oversee that kind of mandate.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Grizz] #2888489 01/02/12 01:57 AM
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they don't have enough ppl for the status quo.


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: rifleman] #2888490 01/02/12 01:57 AM
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Properties under MLD are exempt from AR's.


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Play Maker] #2888736 01/02/12 02:43 AM
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i sure would hate to own property and be told by the state how i was required to manage it


Last edited by newby84; 01/02/12 02:44 AM.
Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: txtrophy85] #2889057 01/02/12 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: txtrophy85
Originally Posted By: BenBob
Aren't they pretty lax in enforcing how you participate while you are using it?


i've had game wardens stop by at camp and request to see all our MLD harvest data. they took there time looking thru it, didn't just skim over it.


I think that the average landowner just dosen't want to mess with the requirements of maintaining a MLD level 3


THIS ^^ is the way I see it as well. Nobody wants the state, feds etc to tell you HOW to manage your land, and the resources on it



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: _Lee] #2889080 01/02/12 03:39 AM
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Newby, unless the USA becomes the USSR you won't ever be told you must harvest a certain amount of deer off your property. Their are several liberal land owners that don't allow hunting at all.... Try telling them they have to kill a certain number of deer.

As far as the MLD program is concerned, its not a one-size-fits-all program. The biologists get pretty involved to tailor a program to your ranch. What works for one place might not work for another. The only thing that would universally fit would possible be the harvest dates. Everything else would require a biologist and there's not enough of those to go around as it is right now.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: stxranchman] #2889555 01/02/12 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
I think you will see some changes in the way the MLD program works over the next few years. The state has gotten lax in their guidelines to qualify for it.
Like what?


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Grayson] #2890522 01/02/12 04:09 PM
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I think I saw that they want to start charging fees to be in the program. (Might have just been proposal)


Last edited by PHishTX; 01/02/12 04:09 PM.

Originally Posted By: WMI report
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?

confused2TPWDconfused2
Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: PHishTX] #2890562 01/02/12 04:26 PM
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State must think that managing the MLD way is better than just having a regular season with regular bag limits or they would not offer it. If this is a better way to manage the deer, why no just make MLD the bag limits and the season length?



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: BenBob] #2890589 01/02/12 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: BenBob
State must think that managing the MLD way is better than just having a regular season with regular bag limits or they would not offer it. If this is a better way to manage the deer, why no just make MLD the bag limits and the season length?

MLD was started as a way for larger ranches to get a handle on managing their over-populations. I was on a ranch in the Hill Country that was over 4500 acres and we had to shoot 300 deer per season in the normal season from Nov till 1st Sunday in Jan. We had a very difficult time getting the numbers off. TPWD started the MLD to help ranches who were trying to get their populations down to carrying capacity. Then it started showing up on smaller ranches mainly HF and they abused it by shooting only trophies early and not working on numbers, some of those were weeded out early on. Now you have smaller LF ranches grouping acreages together to get under the MLD to manage their land. There are several 1000 ranches on this program today. I have always questioned why they did not charge a single penny for the permit. You have to get a management plan in place and work with TPWD to get on MLD. Each TPWD biologist has a little different personal agenda when it comes to issuing the permits. Some are very lax and other are by the book. They issue you all the permits and do the handling of the records at no charge to the landowner. I think you will see some changes on how they issue the permits and to whom they issue them in the next few years. I hope they charge for the permit also to offset operational expenses of the program.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: BenBob] #2890590 01/02/12 04:37 PM
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TPWD doesn't have the resources to do the data collection.

The LO/MLD participants have "skin in the game" so the "think" the data collection is solid enough to make decisions on micro-managing the WTD.

Heck TPWD can't even get good data with the biologist on staff, much less all of the armchair biologists that own a rifle or bow.



Originally Posted By: WMI report
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?

confused2TPWDconfused2
Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: stxranchman] #2890631 01/02/12 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: BenBob
State must think that managing the MLD way is better than just having a regular season with regular bag limits or they would not offer it. If this is a better way to manage the deer, why no just make MLD the bag limits and the season length?

MLD was started as a way for larger ranches to get a handle on managing their over-populations. I was on a ranch in the Hill Country that was over 4500 acres and we had to shoot 300 deer per season in the normal season from Nov till 1st Sunday in Jan. We had a very difficult time getting the numbers off. TPWD started the MLD to help ranches who were trying to get their populations down to carrying capacity. Then it started showing up on smaller ranches mainly HF and they abused it by shooting only trophies early and not working on numbers, some of those were weeded out early on. Now you have smaller LF ranches grouping acreages together to get under the MLD to manage their land. There are several 1000 ranches on this program today. I have always questioned why they did not charge a single penny for the permit. You have to get a management plan in place and work with TPWD to get on MLD. Each TPWD biologist has a little different personal agenda when it comes to issuing the permits. Some are very lax and other are by the book. They issue you all the permits and do the handling of the records at no charge to the landowner. I think you will see some changes on how they issue the permits and to whom they issue them in the next few years. I hope they charge for the permit also to offset operational expenses of the program.


I concur with stx. I have a BIL on the program and they have adhered to the guide lines and its working well.

We started a good "inhouse" management program a few years ago and its working well with us but we have an exceptional outfitter that works his arse off at maintaining buck-to-doe ratio. Last year at the extended season we took 79 does. This year it won't be but about half of that and we've already got a good start on the spike and doe reduction.




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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Cool_Hand] #2890646 01/02/12 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cool_Hand
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: BenBob
State must think that managing the MLD way is better than just having a regular season with regular bag limits or they would not offer it. If this is a better way to manage the deer, why no just make MLD the bag limits and the season length?

MLD was started as a way for larger ranches to get a handle on managing their over-populations. I was on a ranch in the Hill Country that was over 4500 acres and we had to shoot 300 deer per season in the normal season from Nov till 1st Sunday in Jan. We had a very difficult time getting the numbers off. TPWD started the MLD to help ranches who were trying to get their populations down to carrying capacity. Then it started showing up on smaller ranches mainly HF and they abused it by shooting only trophies early and not working on numbers, some of those were weeded out early on. Now you have smaller LF ranches grouping acreages together to get under the MLD to manage their land. There are several 1000 ranches on this program today. I have always questioned why they did not charge a single penny for the permit. You have to get a management plan in place and work with TPWD to get on MLD. Each TPWD biologist has a little different personal agenda when it comes to issuing the permits. Some are very lax and other are by the book. They issue you all the permits and do the handling of the records at no charge to the landowner. I think you will see some changes on how they issue the permits and to whom they issue them in the next few years. I hope they charge for the permit also to offset operational expenses of the program.


I concur with stx. I have a BIL on the program and they have adhered to the guide lines and its working well.

We started a good "inhouse" management program a few years ago and its working well with us but we have an exceptional outfitter that works his arse off at maintaining buck-to-doe ratio. Last year at the extended season we took 79 does. This year it won't be but about half of that and we've already got a good start on the spike and doe reduction.

I think the whole intent of the program was to allow ranches to get on MLD and get their numbers and ratios to what they needed to be and then get off of it. Most will stay on it once they get the MLD level III. It has some upside and some downside to the program but in all I think it works very well for those who use it right. Some landowners use it only to gain more lease money or start to harvest trophy deer only early and not so much for the management side of the intent of the program. Most landowners adhere to the guidelines very well though from what I have seen. They have a ADCP that I used in the early 90's to help control numbers of doe and spikes and you had to pay $300 per year if I remember right to get it. You had to qualify to get it but had to shoot deer in the normal season dates but could name the shooters on the permit. If they still charge for it then they should charge for MLD also IMO.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: stxranchman] #2890657 01/02/12 05:11 PM
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It's not just small places that are using it to shoot their trophies early. Well, I guess it depends how you define small.


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: stxranchman] #2890665 01/02/12 05:13 PM
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Lots of landowner do not want the govt. to have any access on their land.


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Grayson] #2890675 01/02/12 05:17 PM
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Everyone uses it to shoot trophies early, especially when it comes to repeat customers or LeRoy who paid $3000 to be on the lease and he's going to shoot that big buck when he walks out; or someone who wants to kill a potential record deer before it has a chance to break off tines. A lot of places use the 5 month season as a bargaining chip to justify costs of the lease. However, if I said I had only shot mgmt deer before general season opened, I would be lying through my teeth.


Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: Grayson] #2890780 01/02/12 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Grayson
It's not just small places that are using it to shoot their trophies early. Well, I guess it depends how you define small.

For the most part you are correct in saying this. But I still know some ranches that have the program that shoot their trophies later like normal. They just shoot management and numbers early. Rut and location of the ranch will dictate more to this than just having the permit. I also know that some will shoot a trophy early when they see it since it might be the last time it is seen.



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Re: If MLD program is so great, why aren't all landowners required to participate? [Re: stxranchman] #2890836 01/02/12 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: stxranchman
Originally Posted By: Grayson
It's not just small places that are using it to shoot their trophies early. Well, I guess it depends how you define small.

For the most part you are correct in saying this. But I still know some ranches that have the program that shoot their trophies later like normal. They just shoot management and numbers early. Rut and location of the ranch will dictate more to this than just having the permit. I also know that some will shoot a trophy early when they see it since it might be the last time it is seen.


from what i've seen, very few ranches use the level III MLD like it should be used (harvest the bulk of your deer early in the season)

I"m suprised they don't make it a doe only season for the month of october.



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